- Once Izaro arives, he smashes me with his first attack and I am instantly dead. 7.9k life, fortify, armor based character, basalt flask and I am still instantly dead on a level 75 map. How does this fit together? There are not many other options to get more life.
Main advice: DON'T STAND STILL WAITING FOR IZARO (why do you even wait for him to punch you first?), DON'T STAND STILL AT ALL WHILE FIGHTING HIM AND HIS MINIONS.
Second: "armor based"? 2017, come on... Armor won't save from heavy hits & if enemy has elemental portion of damage.
- you can not expect the players to know all Izaro phases and their fight consequences (CHARGE DISRUPTORS, FONTS etc.).
....
Seriously I do not care which phase mechanic causes this but it does not feel balanced to me.
That's why we have PoE-Wiki and Poelab...
You clearly show almost 100% ignorance in subject (Izaro phases, Laby mechanics, core game mechanics, etc), yet you're trying to voice your ultimate opinion.
And immediately, Labyrinth "haters" add your "well-thought-out opinion" to "sky is falling" thread.
Keep going, guys, you'll achieve a lot with such arguments and brilliant speakers.
3 simple things (because i don't really want to circlejerk all of that again and again)
1) You just tested ONE of ten (hundred?) possible layouts.
It turned pretty bad for your specific character.
It absolutely doesn't mean "whole labyrinth is stupid\impossible\etc\etc".
2) Why don't you have at least 1 Quicksilver flask equipped?
Of course you'd be damaged while using movement skills at those particular traps.
That Atziri's flask can be easily changed for Quicksilver...
3) You have 2 instant HP flasks (according to your words).
How many of "...of staunching" flasks do you have?
TL;DR
Subjective and unobjective "sample", which is absolutely not enough to claim "lab is totally & completely impossible to do and is an awful game design for everyone"
Remember, suffering is convenient.
That is why many people prefer it.
Happiness requires effort.
C) The levers that have to be activated/deactivated are extra stupid. This is supposed to be an ARPG not a puzzle game. If I wanted to play a puzzle game I would start up a puzzle game not PoE.
Puzzles are an integral part of ARPGs and have always been since the genre evolved.
If you want to limit your ingame experience to just a fraction of what PoE has to offer, you are free to do so, but please don't demand removing content you don't care about.
I think PoE can continue to satisfy arpg lovers aswell as the boom boom michael bay crew. ;)
Second: "armor based"? 2017, come on... Armor won't save from heavy hits & if enemy has elemental portion of damage.
It does, it's 2017 and people can't help but drinking the urban legends spread on the forums.
Armour absorbing most physical damage against big hits does not mean that it cannot save you.
Armour only is not great, but it starts shinning when you couple it with other mechanics.
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
We can't have a good discussion if you don't check your grammar people.
But, yea after one year of labyrinth, we still see GGG copying other games. From mario and frogger into dark souls and shadow warrior.
Maybe that's all there is to PoE? A game, that on one side tries its best to create something that has never been done in other arpgs before by having only a single playthrough (like all other mmoarpgs lol), but then undermines its own efforts by having the labyrinth still be a three times thing and by blatantly copying other games, because they run out of inspiration.
And the problems don't even stop there. From optimisation and technical issues to balance and general gameplay. It left a lot to be desired when it was in open beta and it still does.
PoE could be great. It had such great potential, but it's becoming more and more like a joke.
Maybe GGG should just stop creating content after 3.0 and really focus on the existing overflowing crap.
Don't get me wrong, the labyrinth "works" and definitely serves its purpose, but it could be done so much better. And here is where PoE lost its potential. Creating content that is "good enough" for the likes of the lab defenders is still viable from a business perspective, but it certainly leaves me dissapointed for thinking that it would be more than that.
I'm a forum warrior, i was born to post, raised to defend my league. Now my post has been removed, chained and exiled by mods who Ban. Ban is my brother; i do not fear it. I see it in the eyes of men and beasts that i troll. It will take me to play the actual game when i am ready and i am not ready.
Last edited by Pyrokar on Apr 27, 2017, 9:01:09 AM
One year later, stronger and more experienced, I give the lab another try.
Test conditions
Spoiler
- Level 91 slayer with cleave attack
- Complete satisfying T15 maps (higher not tested yet)
- DPS (town):______________68 k (tool-tip does not take into account bleeding, poison etc.)
- DPS (path of building):__~ 3 mio. (effectiv DPS: takes everything into account)
- 7.9k HP
- Solo play
- Movement: Brightbeak + Prismatic Eclipse(3G), gem: Leap slam (0,37 s attack time)
- Playtime: more than 10 h
Result
Spoiler
- I used my roughtly 20 "Offering to the Goddess" for uber-lab. I succeeded 5 times.
- Currently "Offering to the Goddess" is 5c - 7c worth in standard league. In average my loot does not had this value.
- On merc lab I was lucky to get a run-through-friendly layout one day. On this day I did most of my item enchantments. The fastest run was about 6 min. and the longest run about 10 min.
- Enchantments are not very promising at all. There are 388 possible enchantments for the helmet. So the chance to get the enchantment I am looking for is 0.3 % and this calculation does not take into account that the same enchantmens can appear multiple times which happens as well. From my opinion the boots have the best balance in term of getting something which nocticeably support your build.
- Most of the time I died due to the 'deathzones' or due to Izaro's one or two shots.
- Overall it is better to pay for the carry on mercyless and espacially on uber lab rather than to do it by your own. Instead of doing lab runs farm your currency and experience on the atlas. This makes much more sense.
we see what I call the 'deathzone'. Since the rooms are very dark and you are not able to zoom out, you do not know, what is expecting you in the next corner. Once you overcome half of the path you do not want to turn around.
You have to pass this long way, filled with a deadly combination of trials like trials of crippling grief, of piercing truth and uber trials, to enter the next room. There is no other way. Until you reach the pedestral, you loose life within the green cycles whenever you use a movement skill, which most of the time you do in the lab. A hugh downside for close combat characters. If you are unlucky, which tend to happen on such a long path, filled nonstoply with these dangereous trials, the spikes hits you right in the position, so the wheels hits you as well. While you are stucked you can not escape and you get a lot of trap damage.
I got 2 flasks which can replenish my life by 1.4k instantly. Since i got almost 8k HP this is not much but best i can get, since % instant life regeneration flasks are undesirable in the game.
These deathzones are ment to see you death and most likely in the second or third last room, probably to awake the full frustration potential - who knows.
Some critisism
Spoiler
Please do not understand the critism as I am not appreciating all your work. Seriously you do a good job. However there is still space for improvements:
- I loose an insanly amount of experience in uber-lab (T8), since I am level 91 and die so often even with my high end equipment
If I do manage to open the chests in uber-lab, I do not get a similar loot value compared to "Offering to the godesss" value in standard league. Since my stash is very limited it is not worth to keep these very low level items hoping to trade them.
- I am able to do deathless T15 content but I die almost everytime, even with 7.9k life, in T8 uber-lab maps. How does this fit together?
- you can not expect the players to know all Izaro phases and their fight consequences (CHARGE DISRUPTORS, FONTS etc.).
- In high-end gameplay everything goes really fast and then you have to watch how slowly Izaro is always arising. It feels like you are waiting for ages for him. This happens three times. Why do I have to wait this long? The same when I want to leave the room.
- Once Izaro arives, he smashes me with his first attack and I am instantly dead. 7.9k life, fortify, armor based character, basalt flask and I am still instantly dead on a level 75 map. How does this fit together? There are not many other options to get more life. Seriously I do not care which phase mechanic causes this but it does not feel balanced to me.
- As soon Izaro looses 1/3 of his life in the first stage he is still attacking me? Why? I can not make him loose life but he can kill me? The same happens on the second stage. What is the intention behind it? Imagine shaper could do this?
- Camera rotation issue: There are corners where i can not see the trap because of the wall and the static camera angle. Why not creating larger rooms so this does not happen?
- Experienced a bug where I got damaged on fully stoned stairs.
- The lab currently favors whirling blades and leap slam and probably blink arrow as movement skills. Lightning warp is because of its delay not an option. Since the movement skill is a crucial part for lab the movement quality should be on an equal level unindepent of the main hand weapon.
- Why does the labyrinth has its labyrinth name? I never have the feeling to be in a labyrinth. One day I entered a hideout which was designed as a labyrinth. I almost feeled lost until someone guided me through it to the map device. This was funny.
- I am not satisfied with the current leech state. My 43 % maximum life leech rate, which is max., can not compete with vaal pact. If the intention is to have every character vaal pact you could put all classes starting over there?
- Lab favoures non-close-combat builds
- most difficult and dangereous rooms are in the last section rather than in the first section
- before I did the test I got the ascendency points on merciless and uber-lab by paying someone to carry me through. And after my test I will handle it the same. I am not sure if GGG indended to do so, since the game gets a pay-to-win character, but I do not see any other option.
- I guess there is no other part of the game which is so highly discussed like the lab issue in POE. I think, that the community deserves to know how the average opinion is. Share some statistic data about the lab. How often does people do lab runs on which difficulty. How often do they die in average there? Make a survey, how people like the labyrinth, e.g. when they log in or on any other internet page. Is most of the feedback to the lab from individual persons or does this represent most of the user's opinion?
- I do not want to read i got the wrong character or wrong skill gem. Because that is the way I want to play the character. However the truth is, there are lab-friendly builds. But seriously this is not my fault.
- I highly disklike the idea of dealy events. There are layout where you do lab runs and there are days where you do not do the lab runs otherwise you most likely will die or it takes too much time to get the 3 keys. You are looking for comments like:
"The day i waited for. Almost zero traps, locker and argus main path. Only golden door sucks."
- I dislike the idea to click on switches to open / close multiple doors. There is no other place in POE where you have to do this.
- for all mantioned reasons the frustration potentinal is so high in the lab. I prefer to die in a rare T15 dark forest map by boss rather than to be killed by traps in the last room of the lab. And I still will get there more XP and more valuable loot compared to the lab.
Solutions
Spoiler
- Give the player more options. I highly like the idea of this layout.
Either the payer takes the golden door part or the other two rooms. Why not expanding the idea and offering the player three different boss fights in the final stage. I want more of this.
- focus more on one point:
If you want to make my decisionmaking in boss fights affecting the next boss fights do this.
If you want to have more daily events, do this.
If you want to test the movement skills and flask management of characters by traps focus on this.
But do not mix everything up. First each part for itself has to work. As soon as this is successful you can try to combine it again, presuming most community member will enjoy it.
- to reduce the waiting time in Izaro fights, start the fight as soon the player hits Izaro for the first time.
- Introduce flasks which replenish 50 % of hp instantly. For my char it would be about 4000 hp.
- reduce the number of possible enchantments on the helmet by half
- reduce the number of rooms by 1 or 2
- instead of items I prefer more currency loot from the chests.
Since time is a very rare ressource I hope you can find something useful in this contribution.
For more feedback watch out for other community members:
Winterfury, WiseGuard, WizBlizz1994, winterlude, Regulator and many more
Pick CI node and shavs revelation traps are easy now.
C) The levers that have to be activated/deactivated are extra stupid. This is supposed to be an ARPG not a puzzle game. If I wanted to play a puzzle game I would start up a puzzle game not PoE.
Puzzles are an integral part of ARPGs and have always been since the genre evolved.
If you want to limit your ingame experience to just a fraction of what PoE has to offer, you are free to do so, but please don't demand removing content you don't care about.
I think PoE can continue to satisfy arpg lovers aswell as the boom boom michael bay crew. ;)
I have seen puzzles in RPGs. I haven't seen such puzzles in ARPGs though. They can leave the stupid puzzles in for people that like them, just make the puzzle content optional.
Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support (thread # 1702621) Thank you all! GGG will implement a different method for ascension in PoE2. Retired!
We can't have a good discussion if you don't check your grammar people.
But, yea after one year of labyrinth, we still see GGG copying other games. From mario and frogger into dark souls and shadow warrior.
Maybe that's all there is to PoE? A game, that on one side tries its best to create something that has never been done in other arpgs before by having only a single playthrough (like all other mmoarpgs lol), but then undermines its own efforts by having the labyrinth still be a three times thing and by blatantly copying other games, because they run out of inspiration.
And the problems don't even stop there. From optimisation and technical issues to balance and general gameplay. It left a lot to be desired when it was in open beta and it still does.
PoE could be great. It had such great potential, but it's becoming more and more like a joke.
Maybe GGG should just stop creating content after 3.0 and really focus on the existing overflowing crap.
Don't get me wrong, the labyrinth "works" and definitely serves its purpose, but it could be done so much better. And here is where PoE lost its potential. Creating content that is "good enough" for the likes of the lab defenders is still viable from a business perspective, but it certainly leaves me dissapointed for thinking that it would be more than that.
Puzzles have been in plenty of ARPGs, you could pretty much count with one hand the number of ARPGs that doesn't have them.
I remember playing diablo 2 (the inspiration for this game) like almost 20 years ago and in act 1 they had this puzzle of Cairn stones that you had to hit in a certain order for The Search for Cain quest. Sure seems like you didn't have to get very far into that arpg before encountering a puzzle.
Guild Leader The Amazon Basin <BASIN>
Play Nice and Show Some Class www.theamazonbasin.com
Second: "armor based"? 2017, come on... Armor won't save from heavy hits & if enemy has elemental portion of damage.
Just chiming in here, on a different note from lab in particular: its PERFECTLY reasonable for a player to expect a PRIMARY defense to, well, DEFEND against the ONE thing its advertised as doing: Protecting against physical hits (which a good portion of Izaro's damage is)
The fact that Armor is trash to go into melee with is insane.
Last edited by aleksandor on Apr 28, 2017, 12:09:58 AM
