A better nerf to Vaal Discipline

"

Deadpeng wrote:

Since when do life builds actually run vaal discipline?

Had it on my RF Totem Chieftain because I needed blue links anyway, so I got Armour/ES gear. Then I got a Shapers Touch to turn all my Strength into ES boost and went with Discipline and Determination auras. got a good additional 1600 shield from the whole setup, which also benefited the totems. Vaal Discipline was in a leftover wand socket, useful to fire to take some pressure off when needed. Didn't have much to cast other than a dual CoH Firestorm.

"

Ratedetar wrote:

"

Darksagex wrote:

I just think the fact that it requires souls to use is is more than enough to keep the skill in check.

This is BS and you know it. We clear mobs in half a second, the thing gets filled up faster than you can blink 5 times.

Ssshh don't tell everyone. Usually when I port in a map all I have to do is loot, mobs are already dead and I get xp.

In all seriousness, at some point there are no more mobs. You can't port out and refill Vaal Disc. Once you use it, you have to kill X number of mobs before you can use it again. Flasks recharge much faster.

Again, it has its limits.

"

Darksagex wrote:

You would need at least 4540 HP to get the same ES bonus (908) from Vaal Disc.

Yeah, I know. That's fine. But with my wording, CI characters would still get nothing, which is evidently the point of the change.

"

Darksagex wrote:

The problem in my opinion isn't CI but rather Leech. You don't really have a panic button as CI if there is a damage spike, there is no "ES Flask".

For the purposes of this thread, and my argument, CI can go kick rocks. Based on what we saw in the dev manifesto, GGG wants Vaal Discipline to be worse. Fine. My argument is - make it worse - but only for CI builds. Because nerfing VD in the way they described wrecks the utility for builds that don't need nerfed (life builds).

They (the life/hybrid builds) already got less utility out of it, because your energy shield regeneration rate is a % of your max ES. Since life and hybrid builds obviously have less ES, that's less regen/second than in the optimal CI cases. The fact that those builds don't depend on it to live doesn't matter. It is, imo, an oversight that nerfs these builds even though it's likely CI characters who are in the crosshairs of the nerf.

Vaal discipline nerf is really badly designed to me.
I see it as a massive nerf to occulist. The instant regen will still be good, but good enough over a vaal grace ? Not so much imho.
Did it deserve a nerf ? Yes. Something silly like this ? No. The nerf just makes it useless for many ES builds, 'meh' to 'nice to have' for some other builds.

Basically the nerf means VD will be close to useless for all ES build with Vaal Pact+ Ghost reaver. Anything like howa, or generally speaking anything based on instant leech won't have any use of the new VD.


For any ES build that doesn't use leech, VD will remain 'good' for the instant regen/potion like effect. But, for occulist it will be 'meh' at best.
For other ES build without leech, such as Inquisitor totem, VD will still be a thing for the regen. But is it that strong ? I think I'll probably keep using 1, most likely not more like I used to use.

As a side note, VD was basically a lag protection/ one-shot mechanics for ES character.
Gl running guardians in HC now...


My bet, VD will be 1c tops next league since most of ES builds won't use it. Such overnerfed.

That said, we don't have all information on the new VD, maybe leveling the gem will give some other benefits. But it will be most likely something useless or just nothing.

Rest In Peace Vaal Discipline.

"

Darksagex wrote:

"

innervation wrote:

"

Darksagex wrote:

What Deadpeng said. Hybrids benefit more from health flasks imo.

The nerf is absolutely unnecessary. Not every CI/ES build has leech.

Once every 48 mobs you can recharge your ES. Ridiculous.

Well benefiting from flasks doesn't preclude you from benefiting from Vaal Discipline. I guess I shouldn't have said 'life builds'. It gives the impression that I mean Marauders and Duelists that take blood magic. I meant life builds as a Templar, Witch, or Shadow that end up with 750-1500 ES. I don't think those quite rise to the level of 'hybrid', but those life builds with some ES...VD is good for them. Not as good as it is for an ES build, obviously, but it's a real, significant boost to survivability - both against bosses and during peak danger events like breaches.

Making a flat ES bonus scale off your max HP for Vaal Discipline would let the gem help the builds I describe above, while still nerfing it for CI characters.

You would need at least 4540 HP to get the same ES bonus (908) from Vaal Disc.

The problem in my opinion isn't CI but rather Leech. You don't really have a panic button as CI if there is a damage spike, there is no "ES Flask". Unless you are an Occultist or stack a lot of regen with ZO, the uninterrupted regen is still too slow to help you in a bad situation, especially with such a short duration. Life doesn't stop regening if you take damage, ES does. Burning ground, for example.

I honestly don't see the point in it. For the future I just won't use it, still doesn't mean it has to make sense.

Maybe GGG will make a Writhing Jar Flask for ES? :D

running 22k ES every couple of seconds make sense to you? thanks god it will be nerfed, im predicting an ocean of tears from entitled kids and its gonna be glorious :D

"

innervation wrote:

"

Darksagex wrote:

You would need at least 4540 HP to get the same ES bonus (908) from Vaal Disc.

Yeah, I know. That's fine. But with my wording, CI characters would still get nothing, which is evidently the point of the change.

"

Darksagex wrote:

The problem in my opinion isn't CI but rather Leech. You don't really have a panic button as CI if there is a damage spike, there is no "ES Flask".

For the purposes of this thread, and my argument, CI can go kick rocks. Based on what we saw in the dev manifesto, GGG wants Vaal Discipline to be worse. Fine. My argument is - make it worse - but only for CI builds. Because nerfing VD in the way they described wrecks the utility for builds that don't need nerfed (life builds).

They (the life/hybrid builds) already got less utility out of it, because your energy shield regeneration rate is a % of your max ES. Since life and hybrid builds obviously have less ES, that's less regen/second than in the optimal CI cases. The fact that those builds don't depend on it to live doesn't matter. It is, imo, an oversight that nerfs these builds even though it's likely CI characters who are in the crosshairs of the nerf.

So there are two kids, one has a toy, one doesn't. Instead of giving the kid without a toy one, I take away the toy from the second kid.

That's basically the Life vs CI argument.

Leave Vaal Disc as it is, buff life.

"

Phantomforce wrote:

running 22k ES every couple of seconds make sense to you? thanks god it will be nerfed, im predicting an ocean of tears from entitled kids and its gonna be glorious :D

I've never had 22k ES ^.^ especially not every two seconds.

DismantleTime has 15k HP with his Marauder, no shield. Legacy League with Legacy Kaom's? This is a buff ;) Now everyone can run around with at least 12k HP. Consider life buffed? :>

"

sarahaustin wrote:

So it has no ES on it anymore or what? So its a useless gem now? Someone explain! Im dumb!

That's basically it. Discipline will only give uninterrupted regen now. Useless gem.

"

Darksagex wrote:

So there are two kids, one has a toy, one doesn't. Instead of giving the kid without a toy one, I take away the toy from the second kid.

That's basically the Life vs CI argument.

Leave Vaal Disc as it is, buff life.

U mad though?

Life vs CI discussion is about opportunity cost comparing the two options and has nothing to do with
"one having a toy while the other does not"

Peace,

-Boem-