Lack of Passive Tree reset diminishes enjoyment

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Amaraethus wrote:

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Logun24x7 wrote:

Playing through the same simple quests over and over again is not a player retention mechanic, the gear itself is the retention mechanic and on the build of a new character or re-spec players will need to grind out new gear to match the new build.

I completely disagree. This "endgame" mentality is what will make the game stale. "I leveled to 75 with one character, why should I have to level another if I just want to change my build?"

Because it invalidates every other part of the game that's not endgame. May as well ask, "I climbed to the top of the mountain and back once, I should get a free plane ticket there whenever I want now." You are reducing the leveling and gearing experience of a new character to a means to an end. That end being a never-ending grind for slightly better items than what you have.

What's funny here is that the way the passive tree is set up, any class can do practically anything. How's that for replay value? "Level up to high level, then you can forget the other 5 classes even exist."

You also say the player needs to grind out new gear anyway when he respecs. So... why not play through the game again with a new character, taking part in a leveling experience, skill gem acquisition, and gearing up, instead of just doing maps? That's what the game was designed for.

I heard you mention the amount of time you have to play the game. You said 2-3 hours a day? That's a fair amount of time actually, and about the amount of time I have to play as well. Allow me to speculate on your behalf: Maybe you're expecting too much of yourself. Maybe you're thinking: "This game is only worth my time if I can roll multiple godlike characters and not have to waste any time ever."

What I'm hearing from that is: "GGG, please change the game to accommodate me, because my aspirations for a character and the time I have to play are incompatible." This may apply to you, but for others it won't. I'm fine with enjoying the game for 3 hours every couple of days. I know I won't ever reach the godlike power I had back in D2 when I played 9 hours a day, and I don't expect the developers to change their vision on account of that.

This isn’t about me, it’s about what I think from a game design perspective would add fun to the game and remove discouragement.

How did you learn what builds are viable, did you learn from the game or 2 or 3 hours spent on the forum and the net reading about what works.

In my mind, if players become afraid to try new things for themselves and learn by their own trial and error then they’re just going through the motions.

Here’s about how it works now, a new players backs themselves into an unplayable corner and fooBarrs their first toon. If that doesn’t make them quit they spend a few hours reading about builds that work and copy one of them rather than waste another 20 hours, but at that point the beauty of this game is lost to them because they’re not learning the game their just taking the word from someone else that (X) is the best build.

I’ve seen some really ingenious original builds that some people have come up with and some of the synergies between some of the skill options takes me back to my magic the gathering days. Unfortunately the price and time it takes to experiment with these synergies means most will be reading about how to do it instead of learning and experimenting with it themselves.

The net result is the same, just one way players are comfortable learning the game by playing it and having fun with it, the other way they are just reading about it and riding on the coattails of those who came before them.

Why not give the player 10 or 15 respec points the first time they kill piety on each difficulty. That way you reward players for sticking out a questionable build and allow them the flexibility to make some changes without belittling their game-play experience.

Full respecs kill the point of playing more than one character. It would render twinking completely pointless, which would mean that there would be no point to holding onto lower level items. It would kill replayability.

It is simply bad game design, and it only appeases the casual crowd. People who want to invest 100s of hours into the game would be shafted if this was to be implemented.

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Logun24x7 wrote:

Here’s about how it works now, a new players backs themselves into an unplayable corner and fooBarrs their first toon. If that doesn’t make them quit they spend a few hours reading about builds that work and copy one of them rather than waste another 20 hours, but at that point the beauty of this game is lost to them because they’re not learning the game their just taking the word from someone else that (X) is the best build.

I'm not against players reading up on builds on the forums to get an idea of what to do. It's research - I consider it a part of the game. I also don't agree that as soon as you level up a character that doesn't work, players will just say - Oh, well this game sucks, I quit. If they have that kind of attitude, they're better off not playing this type of game.

Regarding copying builds, that's the choice of the player. And I highly doubt that implementing free respeccing will discourage *anyone* from copying builds. They'll keep doing it, and instead of rerolling FOTM characters, they'll just respec the FOTM build. You just made their job easier; you didn't change their behavior.

Free respeccing will remove all risk from the system, and make it boring and safe. It's basically enabling godmode for the creative aspect of the game. If you came up with a sweet build and got it to endgame through the ups and downs, congratulations! You earned it.

Just another post from someone who expects success without education, the possibility of failure or consequence of action.

Just ignore.

B.

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bredin wrote:

Just another post from someone who expects success without education, the possibility of failure or consequence of action.

Just ignore.

B.

No, I want to be educated through the act of game play and exploration of building and testing those builds without the penalty of hours of lost game play. If players end up needing to read chapters of build theory on the net to make sure they don’t foo-bar their toon how is that fun. That’s not playing the game that’s just following someone else’s guide.

I’m not looking for a full respec feature here just a bit of flexibility to make experimenting with builds a little less costly.

It’s the same reason you can remove gems from armor, it gives the player the ability to experiment without the need to trash an armor piece because you changed your mind on the gems you set.

The whole point that a ton of people seem to be missing here is that the "people GGG are losing mid-way" are of nobody's concern. These type of people are not going to keep the game alive one way or the other.

This is not a business model we're looking at, it's a game. GGG has no intention of sucking new players in with easy gameplay and instant gratification just for the sake of profits.

PoE isn't a game about instant gratification, and if you're not into that, fine. But don't try to casualize a game that is specifically targeted at a non casual audience. If anything is going to save ARPGs, it's PoE.


TL;DR Don't disguise your whiney behavior as a legitimate concern for GGG's financial success. I think they'll be just fine.

Wall of Text over here:

Full respec is a no to me. I agree it doesn't make much sense to just allow you to create a 100% different build in an instant, and like some people said nobody will even care about creating a build and leveling it, they will just reach a high level as soon as possible, then full-respec into the build they want.


Still, there seems to be a problem with the "shitty builds". You go all game thinking your build is cool and fun, and in an instant it becomes shitty and everybody one-shots you. Your char is useless and you must (basically) re-roll.

Now, I haven't arrived there yet (Still A1 Cruel), but considering everybody else's experiences that is a pretty bad problem.

So, what is the problem itself simplified?
You decide to go through path X until you arrive at point Y. When you arrive at point Y, you realize you are in a dead end, and can't backtrack to keep going.

So how do you solve this? I see 2 ways:
1)Allow people to know that Y is a dead-end before they reach Y, so they can slightly change their path X to avoid said dead-end
2)Once they reach dead-end in point Y, allow them to, with time and effort, overcome that dead-end in order to continue

1) Basically let players know their build is "bad" and they'll get instantly killed later in the game much much earlier. Make them know that at a time where they still have an impact to try and avoid said "dead-end".
Most of the time leveling up is done in Normal (you get 30+ levels there). Normal would be a good time to make people know if their build "sucks" or not. If not make Cruel that one. However you level up slower in Cruel so you may not change stuff that much.

2) Basically, if you see you get one-shot all of the time, then allow players to overcome that.
How? By gaining more levels and finding more loot.
Basically, if they see that in a certain stage X they die a lot, let them "grind" in stage X-1. Make it possible so that if they grind enough, they will be able to go through stage X without dying.
If you took few life nodes in your PST, then this is basically impossible unless those life nodes are conveniently in your path and you can instantly get them as you level up.
If in late-game you find you die a lot, then you won't be able to level up 10 levels to get all the necessary life nodes, etc.
Your only salvation is finding a "+1000 to Maximum Life" gear lol.

So, assuming you would only be able to gain 3-4 more levels before getting bored to death (in that X-1 stage I was talking about), then these 3-4 levels should be enough for said player to keep surviving.
Any loot said player gets when he's grinding there should be enough as well.

I guess Diablo 2 could be an example of this. If in Diablo 2 you see yourself get one-shot because you have little health, then you can grind and level up 2-4 times.
However, you know you need health ASAP, so what do you do? You put ALL your points into Vitality (instead of putting into Strength and the like).
After leveling up a little, you will have considerable amount of health, thus be able to survive.
What does this mean? It means that you can play "normally" (put points into Strength/Mana/etc), and you won't see any significant impact; but if the need arises, you can enter a "desperate" situation with a "desperate" solution, but it should still work (even if it may not be the best for you in the long-run, for instance by not getting those Strenght/etc points you wasted on Vitality).

It makes sense and it's how things tend to work in nature.
For instance, right now all your organs are functioning fine, and you are fine.
However, if you get stranded in Antartica, you'll get pretty cold. If all your organs/muscles/etc function in the same way, you will die VERY FAST. However, your body shuts down other "unnecessary" parts of your body to give you enough heat to at least survive a couple of more hours/days.
This is a "desperate" solution made by your body for a "desperate" situation.
Now, if we assume your organs functioning correctly represents you "crafting your build", and you living represents you not hitting a dead end with a "shitty build", then my point becomes clear.


I'm not saying there should be more base-life per level and a choice to "level up life", but that would (maybe I'm not entirely sure) solve the problem.
If that doesn't work, then change stuff about the game/Passive Skill Tree:
-Change the dependency on life nodes and make people get life easier in other ways
-Make mobs hit for less damage, and don't allow some mobs to one-shot people (don't make them stack damage mods, etc)
-Change the way players interact with the PST so they have more chances to get those life nodes easily when they need them ASAP.
Making Orbs of Regret drop more often could help; maybe change the PST mechanic entirely, maybe include new orbs that give you passive points, or let you teleport to the nearest life-node, or something.

Maybe have some specific rare orbs that when used permanently give you more maximum life? If you farm a specific place long enough you'll get 4-5 of those orbs, thus get enough life to survive the next stage.
Maybe make it so the drop rate of those orbs is exponential if you grind in a single place (basically if you stay in a single place and not go anywhere else).
With this mechanic, normal players that go from stage to stage won't see any of these orbs (or 1 or 2 per act, something like that).
However, players that are stuck, thus can only grind on the same place, will see more and more of these orbs as time passes.
What does this mean? It means that these new "life orbs" will basically only help people that hit a dead-end with a "nonviable" build, which is what we want (we don't want normal people getting 10000 of these orbs and coasting through the game. If they grind the same place over and over they would technically get all these orbs, but they would need to waste a lot of time and effort and won't advance in the game at all)
Again, "desperate" solution for a "desperate" problem.

You want there to be a "downside" for these new "life orbs"? Then feel free to give negative stuff to them.
Again, when you are in Antartica your liver stops working so you don't freeze to death.
You may end up surviving (gain enough life in our case), but on the expense of your other organs functioning properly, and maybe have permanent damage in the future.
If we go by this same analogy, then we can give these orbs a downside, that way they are only used by desperate people in desperate situations (I mean, it doesn't make sense for your body to shut down your liver any time it pleases him doesn't it? Then it shouldn't make much sense to use these "life orbs" when you have no problems with your build).

For instance, they could be like this:
Aid Orb:
Gives you +15% Maximum Life
Gives you -10% Maximum Mana, -3% Attack Speed, -5% Elemental Damage, -5% Physical Damage, -3% Movement Speed
Right click this item to apply it.
Every 30 minutes you don't go into new areas, the chances to drop this orb doubles (time spent in town doesn't count).

Would the above be a viable solution?


If not, we can keep discussing and bring in new ideas.

People seem to just give 2 solutions for the whole "nonviable" build problem:
1)Deal with it
2)I want a Full PST Respec

Both of these seem a little extreme to me and either don't solve the problem at all, or endanger other parts of gameplay and may bring even more problems in other areas.
I propose we try to come up with ideas that are not those two.

Hey, this would be an orb, thus a currency item right?

If so it can also be traded.
If someone is desperate enough that his build is shitty and gets killed, then let him buy these for a very high price!

Maybe 5 GCP or something like that (or whatever is "expensive"). Again, desperate times, desperate measures.

This might give "normal" people incentive to farm these orbs though. Maybe it's better to make them un-tradable or something, but do include them with vendors to buy (again, for 5 GCP or something like that)

My question is HOW can you mess up a build so badly that it cannot function at all?

I mean:

1) you naturally get 18 skill refund points just through doing quests

2) You can get Orbs of Regret (they do drop)

3) There are "kill zones" at spaced fairly regularly throughout each act to "nudge" you in the right direction



The only way I can really think of that this can happen is if people get carried to a point where they can't go any further.

If you're going solo and run into a spot whee you're thinking: "man this is hard", you might want to think more about *why* it's hard and start working toward a solution.


I'm in a similar situation with one of my toons right now... got to act 3 normal and began running into difficulty (well, it technically started in the pyramids in act 2).

I changed out a skill and began levelling my way toward getting some more survivability. I mean, this game does require some level of planning... but that's the fun thing about this game.