Endgame drops are ridiculously fucked up!

My main gripe is having to scout through heaps of complete garbage, 99.9% of the loot in this game is enirely worthless. Disabling loot filter in maps with good item quantity will literally fill the whole screen with nameplates forever. It's absurd.

XP nerfs start at lvl 95

let this sink in into people that complain about it making a difference, people that never got to 90.


i have a simple question - what kind of 'drops' would not be 'shit' from 'end-game maps'?

a hint: if one says '1 exalt would be nice' then i reply 'you VALUE exalt because it is valuable, if it drops like candy noone would value it'. same with T1 uniques, extremely rolled rares

these items are VALUED because these are VALUABLE. and VALUE is always a function of demand and supply.

Atziri's flask. look at it. it is a VERY powerful item. item that fits pretty much any direct damage build. very very strong. and you can get yours for 2 alts. why? because it drops like crazy. make it T1 rarity and it would sell for exalts, easily.

people demanding 'good drops' do not see the connection between 'them getting good drops' and these drops becoming worthless. this is economy-centered game. for items to retain value these have to be rare.

increasing drop rates only moves the 'shit' goalpost making more and more items 100% worthless.

how many of you no longer even pick rares leaving that to peons who will gladly do the unpaid job of sorting them out and selling them for 1c?

another fun fact - people playing FoTM cookie cutter lame builds should not ever dare to complain about game being too easy or drops not rewarding. these broken builds break game progression curve and allow people to access content that they should not be allowed to access

try the game as 2h melee build and tell me that you are playing game 'far too easy due to outgrowing the content'

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sidtherat wrote:

Spoiler

XP nerfs start at lvl 95
let this sink in into people that complain about it making a difference, people that never got to 90.


i have a simple question - what kind of 'drops' would not be 'shit' from 'end-game maps'?

a hint: if one says '1 exalt would be nice' then i reply 'you VALUE exalt because it is valuable, if it drops like candy noone would value it'. same with T1 uniques, extremely rolled rares

these items are VALUED because these are VALUABLE. and VALUE is always a function of demand and supply.

Atziri's flask. look at it. it is a VERY powerful item. item that fits pretty much any direct damage build. very very strong. and you can get yours for 2 alts. why? because it drops like crazy. make it T1 rarity and it would sell for exalts, easily.

people demanding 'good drops' do not see the connection between 'them getting good drops' and these drops becoming worthless. this is economy-centered game. for items to retain value these have to be rare.

increasing drop rates only moves the 'shit' goalpost making more and more items 100% worthless.

how many of you no longer even pick rares leaving that to peons who will gladly do the unpaid job of sorting them out and selling them for 1c?

another fun fact - people playing FoTM cookie cutter lame builds should not ever dare to complain about game being too easy or drops not rewarding. these broken builds break game progression curve and allow people to access content that they should not be allowed to access

try the game as 2h melee build and tell me that you are playing game 'far too easy due to outgrowing the content'

No offense Sid, but did you read the whole thread? Most of your post talks about XP and items but only a couple of posts even mention them. The thread isn't about that.


Maybe changing the Thead title would be a good idea.. Make it clearer and potentially sound less ranty. (Is ranty a word? It should be :p)


Anyway, lets discuss this part..

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sidtherat wrote:

another fun fact - people playing FoTM cookie cutter lame builds should not ever dare to complain about game being too easy or drops not rewarding. these broken builds break game progression curve and allow people to access content that they should not be allowed to access

try the game as 2h melee build and tell me that you are playing game 'far too easy due to outgrowing the content'

You've been around here long long enough to know that you don't need a FoTM build to run high level content, especially after the introduction of ascendencies. Most decently geared and built characters can make it to T15 with a bit of skill. And that's the whole point. If your build CAN handle that content, it becomes frustrating when you cant access that content. Hell, even if you CANT handle that content, being gated from even trying it is still frustrating. I might get wrecked in every T16, but I'll likely never know because RNG seems determined to keep me from it.

You're thought process seems to be... if you cant get high level maps to drop, then run a build you don't want to play so you can try and get a challenging level of game play in lower level maps. Surely you can see the problem with that? The game has always stated that you can make whatever you want, however you want. But if you want to play at a tier that challenges you, well, throw that out the window and build the weakest build in the game at the moment. How is that meant to keep me engaged? If I wanted to play that, believe me, I would. Regardless of the consequences.

I'm not the sort of person who wants to play content with their eyes closed. I like challenging game play. The power creep in the last 12 months has moved the bar of where that challenge lays. 18 months ago, I could build the character I wanted to play and get that level of challenge without needing the highest tier maps. That's no longer the case. My builds are not FoTM and they are no better than they use to be. But the challenge is no longer there at earlier levels because player damage is through the roof etc etc. And that's where the frustration levels start to creep up.

This league, I'm playing a life based SRS build, using blood magic. I have no leech, no poison or double dipping mechanics, no crazy ES pool, no "FoTM gimmicks" at all (bow / soul strike for example). Why? Because that's what I wanted to do. There is still little challenge in T13 maps (Heck, I'm only using a +2 staff and no empower). I have run a handful of T14/15's thanks to friends and these provided some decent challenges for the build and were fun. But my RNG is dictating only a very limited number of maps above T12 are dropping.

And so I get more and more frustrated. At the moment it feels like power creep has made a much wider variety of build capable of running high level content, but the map drop system hasn't kept pace. The net result is that I am left in limbo, where I either
--- 1. Play content that feels too easy, or
--- 2. Walk away.
A lot of people I know have simply tired of the first option.

I play this game since it was released and in my opinion it gets worse and worse with every patch. Another thing that needs to be adjusted are the ridiculous prices for MTX-Items, they'd probably sell x10 what they sell now if they cut the prices 50% off. I mean 30$ for some wings in a game? Come on.

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Raudram wrote:

My main gripe is having to scout through heaps of complete garbage, 99.9% of the loot in this game is enirely worthless. Disabling loot filter in maps with good item quantity will literally fill the whole screen with nameplates forever. It's absurd.

... and you know what? All that crap has 3d models that need to be rendered.

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sidtherat wrote:

i have a simple question - what kind of 'drops' would not be 'shit' from 'end-game maps'?

- Maps
- Uber Atziri fragments
- Atziri fragments
- More maps
- Chaos orbs in quantities large enough such that I can start crafting myself
- Exalted orbs in quantities large enough such that I can start crafting myself
- Build-enabling unique items (though I am fine with having to buy them)

"

sidtherat wrote:

a hint: if one says '1 exalt would be nice' then i reply 'you VALUE exalt because it is valuable, if it drops like candy noone would value it'. same with T1 uniques, extremely rolled rares

Exalted orbs have an intrinsic crafting value. However, that value is almost completely useless because its trade value is higher. Does the intrinsic crafting value go down if more Exalted Orbs drop? I doubt it. I have a few items that I would like to craft, but I would need 20+ Exalt per item to make it worth trying, and for that kind of currency I can just buy an already very well rolled item.

Crafting is fun, but unfortunately restricted because the necessary currencies do not drop.

Besides that, does the value of a T1 unique in terms of it enabling builds go down because its trade value goes down? No. I am very happy if Shav's drop to 10-20c or less, I have absolutely no problem with that. I have no problem with 6-links dropping in price and/or being easier to achieve either. Trade would be destroyed? I don't care, I could play this game without having to trade.

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sidtherat wrote:

these items are VALUED because these are VALUABLE. and VALUE is always a function of demand and supply.

Atziri's flask. look at it. it is a VERY powerful item. item that fits pretty much any direct damage build. very very strong. and you can get yours for 2 alts. why? because it drops like crazy. make it T1 rarity and it would sell for exalts, easily.

For me, value is a function of their usefulness for achieving my in-game goals. A Taste of Hate flask, for example, is useful even if I do not know its trade value. An Atziri's Flask is useful even though it comes essentially for free. Make it T1 rarity and annoy everyone who uses it in their build. It is great that it is 1c, I would not have it any other way. Even though I've personally found like 40 or so of them (most of them I just gave away for free).

The fact that you perceive common drops as worthless is a problem of you, not of the drops being worthless.

A white ilvl 84 Bone Bow, however, is indeed useless because it has no practical end-game use.

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sidtherat wrote:

XP nerfs start at lvl 95

let this sink in into people that complain about it making a difference, people that never got to 90.

That is not true! The XP nerfs starts much earlier just the single latest xp nerf was aiming for 95 plus but even this one makes a big difference even at level +91.

"

i have a simple question - what kind of 'drops' would not be 'shit' from 'end-game maps'?

This question needs to be answered in 2 parts.
1.) pure item drops - First of all it would be great if the simply remove every single low level unique from dropping in >t10 maps because everytime something like a redbeak droping in a tier >13 map it really feels like ggg is straight spitting in the face of the player! Getting nothing is way better than getting this offensive bullshit!
2.) map drops - map drops need a range from +/- 2 tiers from the map that is dropping them. It's like point one, I would like it a lot more to get no map at all than getting these completely worthless bullshit lowlevel maps. Again it feels like ggg is straight spitting in the face of the player! Tier 2 maps droping in >t14 maps? Fuck that shit!
I don't want to be drowned in t1 uniques and t16 maps but I really really hate it when I only get crap that I would not even use if my char would be a level 70 crapnoob running t1-9 maps!

so i struck a nerve..

'content gated by rng' is true. i do not like it. but i can see why they have done that - to avoid clay-handed players with their not-there-yet characters attempt hardest possible content and then whine on forums 'gaem du hard!' we see too many lab complaints already (the part that claims waypoints and zerging are needed) - it is toxic and it is simply bad for the game

gating end-game somehow is needed for sanity. does poe gate it in the best possible way? no. but the RNG gating is laziest and easiest to implement (and can be bypassed with trading GGG loves so much). again: i do no like that but i can see the reason behind that

players feel compelled to attempt highest/hardest content there is despite not being ready. most of them cannot accept that they are not-there-yet for it. it is psychology thing, the 'not effective' thing, the 'non viable to play not-hardest content' thing, etc.

id gladly remove map drops altogether and simply scale content with player's level but that would kill all the clay-handed players - they would get stuck in 75 maps forever as they would die time after time again. this is very bad for the money flow as the 'average skill' players make majority of the playerbase


as for the drops - exalts and chaos.. chaos i think are available in overflowing quantities (i ended prophecy with ~1k chaos in stash without really trading much). exalts.. it is very simple: you want to craft but exalts are expensive. if you make exalts more available you will just make better items cheaper to BUY. this game is setup that way - buying is ALWAYS easier and cheaper. the relative values of orbs are only used to express the intrinsic value.

i would like to exalt slam my jewels or rings - but this game is about trading (again, not that i like it..) and that would kill trading completely. GGG did a lot to make trading less important (prophecies, crafting, essences) already.

build enabling uniques - i see these mentioned frequently. what build enabling uniques? because it sounds like 'Shavs'. what other build enabling uniques are expensive? (ok, the CoCS sword might be expensive because all CoCS players jumped ship - but it is due to extreme demand, not the rarity)

so what other build-enabling uniques are unattainable?

PS. i used lootfilter to hide stuff i do not like to see drop. low lvl maps with ilvl higher than -> hide

PS2. personally i wouldnt mind they pull a D3 on this one: maps do not drop items AT ALL. with all drops assigned to the boss. i like playing Untainted not because of XP (at 90 it matters little) but because i no longer have to care about the items that drop. it is far more enjoyable experience without drops occupying my mind all the time.

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sidtherat wrote:

PS2. personally i wouldnt mind they pull a D3 on this one: maps do not drop items AT ALL. with all drops assigned to the boss. i like playing Untainted not because of XP (at 90 it matters little) but because i no longer have to care about the items that drop. it is far more enjoyable experience without drops occupying my mind all the time.

+1. One of the most annoying things while mapping is:

- shuffling through a sea of garbage (even with filter)
- TP-ing to town every minute, to scrape that half chaos/regal recipe or few alterations.

Every map drops a billion items that are all garbage. This doesn't need to be so, loot could be "targeted", with specific maps or bosses dropping specific base items and high ilevels not spawning the lowest mod brackets. Adjust the amount of drop accordingly.

I like the new 2.4 base items - becase they are very rare, even in white & blue form. Put all the loot on the boss & unique monsters (exiles, beyond bosses, etc). Everything else in the map only drops maps, orbs & give you XP. Reduce the amount of drops, but improve their quality.

Eg.: Currently you loot 30 imbued wands per map, you ID them and they are all crap. Under a different system you'd loot 1 imbued wand every 3 maps, but it would have a much higher chance to be good. Less garbage man simulator, more epic loot adventure?

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morbo wrote:

Eg.: Currently you loot 30 imbued wands per map, you ID them and they are all crap. Under a different system you'd loot 1 imbued wand every 3 maps, but it would have a much higher chance to be good. Less garbage man simulator, more epic loot adventure?

More epic loot adventure, at least for 1 day?

1 good Imbued Wand every 3 maps. I play a lot of maps. I would get a very good phys wand, a very good ele wand, a very good caster wand on day 1. Same for every base item I want. Gear chase over, game finished? Game like this exists only because of the gear (+xp) chase. Remove the chase, and you remove the reason to play the game at all.

Think of the unique items for example, buffing the droprates of good uniques by an insane amount didn't make it into an epic loot adventure, it simply killed the value of items and removed any excitement from dropping them. Dropped a Coil today? Nice, it really is a very good item. Now go vendor it.

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toyotatundra wrote:

1 good Imbued Wand every 3 maps. I play a lot of maps. I would get a very good phys wand, a very good ele wand, a very good caster wand on day 1.

Not neccessarily, it all depends on how the drops are balanced. (note that I didn't say "good" but "higher chance to be good"). Balance quantity vs quality is just a slider: you move down the quantity, but raise the chance for better affixes - resulting in the same average time you loot a GG item. Piles of trash make looting boring, I'd prefer less but more impactful drops.

I'm talking about blue & yelow items here. Ofc, you cant just bump all unique drops, that would be too easy. The solution for uniques is in divination cards.