GGG desires "Player Interaction" in Trading?...

Correct me if I'm wrong.

So far what I understand by reading about the catastrophic failure of D3AH,
was that D3AH short circuited D3's core gameplay,
which is to play the game, kill monsters and gain cool loot.

What happened was players go and extensively farm the areas with the fattest gold reward,
and play the AH to get their cool gears.
It didn't help that the system has built in RMT.
Some players just bought the gears and boom, done finished the game tyvm.
Which is not what the developers aimed for.

I think that is the fear of an in-game and automated trading system
that players and GGG are worried about.
It's not helped that many players have accumulated so many items of the game
through the course of the years they are playing it.
Since trading is now streamlined and easy,
those players can now easily put those items on the market.
Items flooding the market and prices dropping,
making those juicy items readily attainable with a few chaos.
You add bots and farmers and.. you get the picture.

That is the essence of Shagsbeard's question..

"

Shagsbeard wrote:

People would answer this question differently: Would the game be any fun if you could have what ever item you wanted?

Some would say Hell yes! Others would say absolutely not.

That's the problem here. There's different people with different ways to play. Automating trade would ruin the game... for many. Lack of automated trade ruins the game for some.

Question is only who has the most money to support GGG's development?

If you have everything you wanted, what is there to play for?..

I myself would like to have an in-game automated trading system,
but not at the cost of crippling the core mechanics of the game.
I think there should be a major overhaul of how items are acquired and how they are consumed,
before GGG can implement an in-game automated auction house.

That is what I learned and all IMHO.

"

element274 wrote:

play the game, kill monsters and gain cool loot

Blah, so outdated. Like, archaic.

You must work hard 24/7 on acquiring even the shittiest of the items and low tier orbs, show persistence, high motivation and flipping abilities in the trading process to accumulate wealth, and finally - be inventive and business oriented to overwhelm the competition on the PoE stock exchange.

"Kill monsters, gain loot". LOL

"

torturo wrote:

"

element274 wrote:

play the game, kill monsters and gain cool loot

Blah, so outdated. Like, archaic.

You must work hard 24/7 on acquiring even the shittiest of the items and low tier orbs, show persistence, high motivation and flipping abilities in the trading process to accumulate wealth, and finally - be inventive and business oriented to overwhelm the competition on the PoE stock exchange.

"Kill monsters, gain loot". LOL

That sounds like work to me. I do applaud how driven you are.
We are playing the same game but on two different aspects of it.
I can't fully empathize since I don't do much trading, but to some degree.. I feel you man. :)
I play standard and casually so.. yeah.
And yes, I am archaic, I still enjoy killing monsters and gaining loot.

"

element274 wrote:

"

Aynix wrote:

"

element274 wrote:

They could actually sell more premium tabs if GGG build the trade system around it. If more people enjoy trading then they would be enticed in buying premiums since it is a core requirement in automated trading.

If the only way to use "automatic trade" would be premium stash, PoE wouldn't be F2P game anymore.
Trading is very important, so it can't be only "for those who pay"

You can still do normal trade and still can use POE.trade for trade listings.
This is Quality of Life improvement not P2W, that's how I see it.
And I guess you could already manage by just buying one set of premiums.
A $10-$20 donation to GGG for doing a great job.

But if you think that this is definitely P2W, then there's nothing I could do about it.
And you'll have anxiety problems arising from a feeling that you've been duped into thinking that this game is totally free. And that GGG can get money from their asses to pay for their employees and server maintenance and somehow create expansions and leagues just by flicking their fingers.

Ahh, sorry about that Aynix, I guess these things can 'trigger' me. lol :P

Pay-to-win does not preclude the ability to play successfully for free. Pay-to-win simply means that, for a real-money price, you can gain some sort of power in-game that gives you an advantage over other players. If GGG is going to keep insisting that trading is the core aspect of this game, then offer MTX to make you better at trading than free players, then you bet your ass that's P2W.

They've managed to sneak by thus far because trading is usually not the most important part of an MMO game. But since they've kept pushing us towards trade and made it functionally impossible to progress without trading, they can't just offer trade-enhancing MTX anymore without being decisively P2W. They might as well just start selling maps in the cash shop at this point.

"

AkuTenshiiZero wrote:

Pay-to-win does not preclude the ability to play successfully for free. Pay-to-win simply means that, for a real-money price, you can gain some sort of power in-game that gives you an advantage over other players. If GGG is going to keep insisting that trading is the core aspect of this game, then offer MTX to make you better at trading than free players, then you bet your ass that's P2W.

They've managed to sneak by thus far because trading is usually not the most important part of an MMO game. But since they've kept pushing us towards trade and made it functionally impossible to progress without trading, they can't just offer trade-enhancing MTX anymore without being decisively P2W. They might as well just start selling maps in the cash shop at this point.

There are hundreds of definition of Free-to-play or Pay-to-win,
each player and developer has his own.
Some games stop at you being able to download and play an instance of their game,
the rest you need to pay.
Some go far as to give you almost everything for free,
no need to pay anything.

If your definition of free-to-play conflicts with GGG, or mine, nothing I can do about it.
Its up to you bro.

Dont use D3 as an example of a failed AH because it is entirely different. Gold, an easy to obtain currency in D3 is why D3 failed. People spent more time playing the AH to make money than playing the actual game. The difference here between poe and D3 is currency and how easy it is to obtain. Everything drops gold and sells for gold directly in D3. Everything has a value in POE but only real value to players, not like in D3 where anything if value is NPC worthy.

People keep saying if an AH existed prices would tank to nothibg. That is not true. If there is 100 total listings for say Atziris Axe today, there wont be 1000 listings tomorrow if an AH was present. Even if there magically was, the price wouldn't tank. If people were into undercutting they would be doing that already but prices are the same regardless of current supply. What changes item values are changes in drop rate, which wont happen. AH wouldnt cause more uniques to drop and flood the market. Even if the market is flooded that doesnt mean it is obtainable. Unlike D3 where gold is easy to get, chaos and exalts and mirrors are not so easy to get, especially in standard.

An AH would solve all problems with trading and remove all 3rd party necesities. GGG needs to own their trading system, if that means GGG buys poe.trade and integrates it, at least its in game. I should not be forced to use 3rd party websites or software to trade. No other game makes you do this, just because POE is a niche india game doesn't mean they cant do what already works. AH are a successful trading mechanic, theres a reason nearly every mmo and rpg has it.

D3 no longer needed an AH with ROS as game switched from rares being BIS to class sets being the best, then they added kadala to make a more deterministic method of obtaining those class sets.

Some will say GGG has the right to defy what we are used to, to make their game different. A trash trading system is not a good promoter for your game. An AH is advertisement worthy.

I dont care really, whether GGG adds an AH or not. I think it would be the best solution. Then they could balance drop rates accordingly to prevent over saturating the market. It is really not that hard to do. They can introduce a floor value so high value uniques can never tank below a certain value like Runescape does with its grand exchange. It can be limited to uniques, divination cards, and flasks as these have stable values that dont fluctuate much.

Then they could implement an integrated poe.trade window to search for rares and such.

The thing I want to stress the most here is removing 3rd party integration that is outside of the game. No one should be forced to leave the game to find some one to trade in game. I should also not be finding people listed as online who are not offline. Only integration into the game can solve that.

Maybe I'm just a bit too much of a layman, but the notion that prices are going to magically plummet makes no god damn sense. What I'm pretty sure is happening here is that the people who currently have a death grip on the market are afraid of the "small businesses" moving in and competing with lower prices. Because honestly I cannot for the life of me see how anyone else is going to lose out on this besides the people who have been monopolizing via playing poe.trade all day.

I mean...You do understand the definition of a free market, right? And you do understand that competition is necessary for preventing over-inflation of prices, right? Of course you do, which is probably why you're all so damn scared.

I think whether or not theres an AH or not, if people were going to underbid to hell for quick sells it would already be happening. And while people will underbid a little, the fact that we know our items value, and that it will and has sold at certain prices, means we will only underbid so much.

If i got an atziris disfavour 5l or 6l, the lowest I would put it is 1 exalt under the going rate. I wouldnt however drop 5 exalts in price just to get a sell.

This is how I believe most people value and sell their stuff. An AH isn't going to change that.

I usually dont replay to post but it this case this seems like an interesting discussion.

Lets get some context in here, so far in this league ESC being a first time lvl90 in PoE (i started playing on Open Beta back in the day) i been doing maps, getting good gear, learning to craft, using premium stash tabs to trade (i miss this update when happened and its first time using them to trade) it has been awesome, but...

The trading sometimes its annoying, you pm someone and they dont respond, or are afk, or they went offline seconds after i got a woop in poe.trade, and when they comeback they sold the item already and is being reposted at a insane price... sigh.

Then the interaction of trading is lacking, yeah i had made several friends by trading, and its because i do respond with kind words and i try to be nice to people, and even then, most people just respond, t4t... sigh

Now that people are starting dropping off the game for whatever reason is starting to be even harder to get some currency by trading, take in consideration im learning prices of items, checking poe.trade to see if is worth something or not, trying to understand what makes and item valuable, its been interesting, but now, there are so many items that are just in someone stash tab getting dust and not being traded, that is annoying, i could use some of those, but the trader now is never online, so sad.

So i understand the part of some to want an AH, that would solve some problems, like afk, not responding, etc, the item will just sell and that is it, but then the AH could introduce problems, and i will not even try to sort which problems could arise with it, because lets be honest, most of the time things take an unexpected turn or are just not what people tough it was going to happen, but its a big possibility it could ruin trading in some aspects.

So, i do agree with some that said, get a better online/afk system, so we can see if is worth while to actually pm that person, that would be a nice QoL for the moment to improve the system for poe.trade

The idea of introducing poe.trade in the game is a really good one, that way trading becomes better in the sense more people will list items and do trading, and without needing to go out of the game into a 3rd party website to do so, setting woops in game to check for items would be amazing as well.

So in overall this league has made me play PoE more, like i said, first lvl 90 ever on PoE, but the trading has been... not the best.

(Sorry if i made any syntax/grammar mistakes, im not a native English speaker)

"

Jgizle wrote:

Dont use D3 as an example of a failed AH because it is entirely different. Gold, an easy to obtain currency in D3 is why D3 failed.

Right, you have alterations/augmentation, alchemy shards, and you cant simple exchance them into Chaos or Ex or whatever.
Oh, WAIT, i have an AH, i actualy can. Sorry bro, its EXCATLY THE SAME. I actualy do it every day, with premium stash tabs nothing is more easy then exchanging curreny.

"

Jgizle wrote:

People spent more time playing the AH to make money than playing the actual game. The difference here between poe and D3 is currency and how easy it is to obtain. Everything drops gold and sells for gold directly in D3. Everything has a value in POE but only real value to players, not like in D3 where anything if value is NPC worthy.

As i said, with a AH where you can exchance anything without any effort, CURRRENCY == GOLD.

"

Jgizle wrote:

People keep saying if an AH existed prices would tank to nothibg. That is not true. If there is 100 total listings for say Atziris Axe today, there wont be 1000 listings tomorrow if an AH was present. Even if there magically was, the price wouldn't tank. If people were into undercutting they would be doing that already but prices are the same regardless of current supply. What changes item values are changes in drop rate, which wont happen. AH wouldnt cause more uniques to drop and flood the market. Even if the market is flooded that doesnt mean it is obtainable. Unlike D3 where gold is easy to get, chaos and exalts and mirrors are not so easy to get, especially in standard.

Nothing is more easy as getting Chaos orbs, i do it every day. Buying alchs 4:1 or 5:1 isnt a problem in EHC. Alching rings, amulets, belts and get the other stuff from maps/dried lake. So i dont have even a loss if all was bad. And each 10th or so is sellable for a few chaos, sometimes for Exalts. The only reason why i dont do it more often is, course its a huge effort to price and sell all these stuff, i have to check the prices realy often, and i have to be in game to trade and cant just simply map. I would realy get a big benefit from a auction house, i dont even have to care about prices, the buyers will do, and i can alch a ton of rings per day.

So what will happen then? I will get a lot more currency as you can imangine. So, the 500c for my shavs? I think it wouldnt be a problem to get these in a day instead of a week. But you can be sure I will not the only one who does it, and a lot more will when AH commes, even when the price of alchs raises, crafting with alts+Regal is no magic. Even is crafting not a option any more, i would spam items i vendor atm. So, I can get now lets say 2000 chaos instead of 500 in a weak. I can tell you what will happen, the shavs and other high valueble item will raise, highly raise, i guess 2000 isnt enough then.

But thats not the biggest impact, people like me will floot the AH with such items, where people can get 1 or 2c for a not-so-op item, they wont, course i dont have any effort to spam hundreds or tousants of these into the AH, i dont care, even if i sell only 5% i will get unbeliveable rich, and people who got 10 chaos a day, will get 1 if they are lucky.

At the current state everyone who realy wants it can buy a shavronnes or kaoms or so if he(or she) realy saves his/her currency. Perhaps not in a week, but in 1 a month or 2 its possible.

You can trust me, nothing is more easy for ppl like me to get 500c a week now (look a my profile if you dont trust me, i actualy bought 2 shavs these league, i is atm in std, but the char ElementDerFinsternis, lvl 89 is still in the EHC ladder). I we will get 1000, 2000 or 5000 a week with an AH.

"

Jgizle wrote:

An AH would solve all problems with trading and remove all 3rd party necesities. GGG needs to own their trading system, if that means GGG buys poe.trade and integrates it, at least its in game. I should not be forced to use 3rd party websites or software to trade. No other game makes you do this, just because POE is a niche india game doesn't mean they cant do what already works. AH are a successful trading mechanic, theres a reason nearly every mmo and rpg has it.

Nope, it wouldnt solve any problem. And i dont know an RPG except for WoW which realy haves an AH, even diablo removed it, course it failed.

"

Jgizle wrote:

D3 no longer needed an AH with ROS as game switched from rares being BIS to class sets being the best, then they added kadala to make a more deterministic method of obtaining those class sets.

I bet they did these changes and finaly removed the AH, course the AH failed, not for any other reason.

"

Jgizle wrote:

Some will say GGG has the right to defy what we are used to, to make their game different. A trash trading system is not a good promoter for your game. An AH is advertisement worthy.

I dont care really, whether GGG adds an AH or not. I think it would be the best solution. Then they could balance drop rates accordingly to prevent over saturating the market. It is really not that hard to do. They can introduce a floor value so high value uniques can never tank below a certain value like Runescape does with its grand exchange. It can be limited to uniques, divination cards, and flasks as these have stable values that dont fluctuate much.
Then they could implement an integrated poe.trade window to search for rares and such.

The thing I want to stress the most here is removing 3rd party integration that is outside of the game. No one should be forced to leave the game to find some one to trade in game. I should also not be finding people listed as online who are not offline. Only integration into the game can solve that.

The only point i can aggre is, it would be nice to have it ingame. But better have it extern than some non workink shit. When i started with PoE (during open beta), the search funktionaly in the D3 AH was still crap in some aspects (e.g. search for a amulet with class specific mods wasnt possible). If ingame than with the ability to use your own tools.


And last but not least, PLS LET ME GET RICH, VOTE for the AH!