On the subject of Gold.
|
@Sickness Though I share most of your opinions, and you mostly got it right in terms of economics, I really think that you should tone it down a little. If people admittedly don't have a superior knowledge of economics, we should politely explain where (and if) they got it wrong. You can never go wrong if you're polite.
On the subject> I feel that developers created some confusion to begin with. Because they labeled commodity items in the game as "currency items" (which they are not) we now have a heated debate. And for the 100th time: PoE does not have currencies and you shouldn't call these items currency. I'd wish PoE had currency, but it doesn't Why? Simply, because those do not fit within the definition of currency. The simplest definition would be: Currency is the item that is universally accepted as the medium of exchange. Since the game (as it is now) does not have a single thing that is generally accepted as that medium, we don't have a currency. Now, commodity money is similar to barter, but is distinguishable from it in having a single recognized unit of exchange. We don't even have that. We have commodity items (over 20 of them) and barter, but not commodity money (or currency). If we did have currency, we wouldn't have barter (meaning exclusively barter), and I wouldn't be posting here. The key feature that is missing here, (along with myriad of other problems that I've already covered) is this: when you have money, value is directly perceived by the user. The effects of holding 10.000 coins, for a goblin basher of asskicking, must be the same economically as actually having the goblin basher of asskicking in your hands.(yes, it's a mace I just invented) But here we have over 20 items (falsely named "currencies"), no direct perception or equivalent value, and overall mess. Also RodHull said that "Using this system players will over time gravitate toward the hoarding and use of certain orbs/scrolls more than others and in trade terms they will become more valuable while others will be perceived less so." He (as a proponent of barter) actually described a process of how currency came to be. So, thanks for proving my point. Wherever trade is common, barter systems usually lead quite rapidly to several key goods being imbued with monetary properties. The next logical step would be accepting just one of the goods as the item of exchange. And as you put it, community will naturally gravitate in that direction. I also must point out that some of the arguments here are logically inconsistent. You say: gold has no value, only the value that a developer assigns to it by setting a baseline...as opposed to the value that is assigned as a baseline for items in the same way here. You say: but scrolls have intrinsic value, I can use them for identifying and poof, they are gone...as opposed to: I can use gold for repairing stuff (or any other money sink) and poof, its gone. which economically speaking is the same sh..t. They are both used for something, after which they disappear. You say: I don't want inflation, there is infinite gold in games...as opposed to infinite scrolls and orbs here. You have valid points in general and those are serious concerns but these problems are not exclusive to currency systems. You will have the same issues in both barter and monetary designs, but what you don't have in currency economy is the added specter of serious problems inherently tied to exclusively barter system. Creating a working and fulfilling economy in games that have persistent world is daunting task. Creating fulfilling economy that relies on just barter is next to impossible. Last edited by Vlady#5098 on Feb 29, 2012, 3:17:44 PM
|
|
|
yeah, I 'm not done. :)
Here's some food for thought: Some peeps here a priori assume that the monetary system in PoE would be bad, and yet they claim that the current system is god (that's right, I didn't misspell that...GOD). How can a developer that makes crappy, flawed gold based systems, make a good barter system (much, much harder task)? If you cannot create a solid currency based system (easier, better, intuitive, has one medium of exchange, has direct perception of value, simpler to use system) there is now way in hell, you'll be able to create a good barter system (overly complicated, has numerous mediums of exchange, has coincidence of wants, non- liquid, non-intuitive system) That is like assuming that a person is incapable of building a sand-castle, and then hiring the same person to build you a mansion in Malibu. Last edited by Vlady#5098 on Feb 29, 2012, 5:09:45 PM
|
|
" It's a good system. I like it. The fact you don't makes me like it more. The 4 paragraphs posts naming all the games you've played lessen your credibility as a creative thinker. Sounds like you have great powers to observe and imitate. Those are worth 0. Barter works because the public sets the value and the ebb and flow of resources based on random drops will allow for a more interactive experience than just saving up enough digital gold to buy whatever. The item is worth what someone will pay. It's the most ancient of economic systems and one that has almost vanished in the real world, supply and demand. It's value is what someone else will give you for it. If someone else will give you more - that's now what it's worth. Death by lag in HC = the most widely told tale to hide the shame of a miscalculated/overzealous death by game :)
|
|
" That, however, is a clear example of creative thinking. Kudos to you. I've not mentioned a SINGLE GAME that I had played. At least have a common decency to read my posts if you want to argue with me. All of the things you mentioned are already present in currency based systems, minus the bad stuff...ergo you're clueless. Liking something more, because there are people who disagree with you is pathetic and immature. |
|
" And now you understand why I'm not always being polite :p |
|
" Or perhaps he won't acknowledge it because it is a problem that you manufactured by insisting any form of gold in PoE would have to have an infinite supply. Lack of gold does not prevent the infinite supply of orbs and everything else monsters drop. Gold provided by NPC traders unlike monster drops could have a limited supply. Gold does not cause inflation and lack of it does not cure inflation, PoE currently has no answer for inflation other creating new empty worlds (leagues) and letting the default league rot. " How do you not get that orbs are just the same? produced infinitely and get converted into increased item quality which never disappears. " So if in PoE monsters dropped gold instead of orbs and there were a set of NPCs who provided the exact same function as orbs in exchange for gold the whole orb thing would be an extraneous game system? The reality is that system would be fundamentally the same. Differences being only seeing gold drop would be a bit boring. Managing one stack of gold instead of 30 stacks of different orbs would be a boon. Players would get the orb functions they want from monster drops without the laborious and haphazard processes of bartering orbs with other players. The devs set the rarity of orbs by setting the NPC gold prices instead of monster drop rates. And of course the major advantage would be players get gold as a viable currency for player to player item trading. Inflation is the same either way, players end up with stacks of gold instead of stacks of orbs. |
|
|
There are fundamental differences between the item system and a gold system.
Gold systems can have a few qualities: 1. Gold is entirely liquid between objects 2. Gold's liquid value is set based on perceived value between a player's effort to gain 1 gold vs. average time/difficulty to acquire 1 item, typically with a sigmoidal relationship. 3. Gold can have an intrinsic value given by NPCs with infinite stock... this can create a low cap on value. Currency item systems have these qualities: 1. Currency is potentially NOT liquid between objects 2. Currency value is based on opportunity cost between acquisition and usage. 3. Currency has its own intrinsic value plus can have intrinsic trade value with NPCs with unlimited stock... this can potentially create a low cap on value. As you can see, there are substantial differences between a gold currency and an item currency, provided the qualities above are upheld by the system. As a functional example, in a gold system if you find 1000 trash items and sell it for 1000 gold, you can then buy 1 good item for 1000 gold. Additionally, in a gold system, if you get 1000 gold and see nothing to trade for, you have nothing without an NPC to give it intrinsic value. In a currency item system if you get 1000 trash items then you potentially have 1000 pieces of worthless trash. If NPCs accept trash, then you potentially have 1000 pieces of some item, and those pieces might be able to be traded to players or NPCs for 1 good item worth 1000 pieces of junk. In a currency item system if you get 1 currency item, you can use it even if you see nothing to trade. Finally, 1000 pieces of currency A might have no relationship or value in comparison to currency B, which is not the case in a gold system. As you can see the systems do function entirely differently given a restricted NPCs trade value. GGG has chosen the currency item system for POE, for better or worse, and a gold economy cannot replicate the functionality that a currency economy dictates in a few ways. Gold economies are CERTAINLY easier for end users, but they also remove some restrictions that GGG wants in place for POE at the current time. Let's be civil and play nice for the remainder of this thread... If you have account problems please [url="http://www.pathofexile.com/support"]Email Support[/url]
| |
|
Zeto... can I hire you to be my attorney? Because kazam that was the thought process!
I love virtual brutality so save it for the Mobs...
|
|
|
@zeto, could you please give us GGG's definition of currency?
Cause,we either have systems that have currency, or systems that do not have currency. How can there be "gold currency systems" vs. "item currency systems" ,as you put it, here. Those 2 are in the same group, economically speaking (and both are missing in PoE). What we have here is currency system in general vs. PoE's pure barter system. I found your post utterly confusing, as I don't see how it relates to PoE. If gold is generally accepted as the medium of exchange, gold is then currency in the same way as any other commodity item is, regardless of what I can use it for, besides trading. Number of items can serve as a currency: precious metals, alcohol, barley, belts, your orbs and scrolls...as long as they are universally accepted as the medium for a trade. That's what makes any item a "currency" (including gold). We don't have anything like that here, thus PoE does not have a currency system in any shape or form. In a currency system, I can sell my armor to a merchant and get a certain amount of currency items, and if I so desire, buy back the armor (or anything else from the store) using that same item (different amount ofc) If merchants would accept one type of orb as a trade medium, that orb would be recognized as a currency item. If they would accept all orbs as mediums of exchange (and if there was a system to make them liquid and directly interchangeable among each other, like modern day money), you would indeed have 20 currencies. But you don't have that here either. You have merchants that will give you a sword for a scroll, a helmet for an orb of augmentation, a pair of boots for an orb of alteration. They would also take some combination of items and give you regal orb in return, for example. There is no perceivable standard. That is a pure barter system, calling it "item currency" system is misleading. Last edited by Vlady#5098 on Mar 1, 2012, 4:25:30 AM
|
|
|
It is important to note that GGG calls their system of orbs and items in POE 'currency items'. A gold (common or universal) currency is not in the game.
A currency is something that has value for something else. POE uses a barter system of 'item currencies'. Your definition above has restricted the term currency to only common or fully liquid currencies, which is not how the term is used in the case of POE. I hope that clear that up for you. Understanding the rest of what I said is more difficult, but is very important to how not having gold as a currency affects the game economy. I don't really want to debate the definition of 'currency' however, so I hope that you can accept these definitions for how they are functionally applied to the game, regardless of what you want to call them. I do not really care if someone likes or dislikes the current system... but arguing semantics has no bearing on the fundamentals of the system under discussion. If you have account problems please [url="http://www.pathofexile.com/support"]Email Support[/url]
|
