Lab is [Removed by Support]- some answers and feedback

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ShaUrley wrote:

How many players are drawn to PoE because they want to play in the labyrinth (as opposed to getting the rewards at the end of it)?

Just yesterday I was watching someone playing PoE for the first time have a very fun losing in labyrinth, it was clearly the most excited he had been since he started. Anecdotes are pointless.

If your argument is about the estimated total number of people who like vs. dislike lab, then you need to find a real statistic or a different argument, strawpolls on the forums are completely worthless. GGG almost certainly have better metrics than you to figure out what MOST of the playerbase like (or if they don't, they certainly have the capability to figure it out)

My comparison to Malachai is to illustrate that most of the game is doing stuff that isn't super entertaining to build up a character and Labyrinth isn't significantly more time consuming or difficult than anything else. You put in that effort to get a reward, and the time, difficulty, and even occasional tedium is supposed to make that reward feel more worthwhile when you get it.

I think a lot of the backlash on lab is from people in standard and the hardcore type gameplay it requires turns them off. One death and you are done. Either because your build is not good in lab, you are not skilled enough, or lag killed you. Imagine if all the sudden GGG decided that on standard maps you only had 1 portal. This is the biggest reason I think.

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FixLabPLSGGG wrote:

I think a lot of the backlash on lab is from people in standard and the hardcore type gameplay it requires turns them off. One death and you are done. Either because your build is not good in lab, you are not skilled enough, or lag killed you. Imagine if all the sudden GGG decided that on standard maps you only had 1 portal. This is the biggest reason I think.

You think Hardcore folks like it any better? ;)

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Zrevnur wrote:

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morbo wrote:

Uber is optional. The same way that having a lvl 100 char is optional.

In the same way as playing PoE is optional. Or posting in this thread.
Which really means that statements about "optional" are just about word definition or about opinion.

No, because you'd never argue that having a lvl 100 char is mandatory to play or complete the game. Or that beating Uber Atziri is required. inb4 "Uber Lab is gating build points" - level 100 is gating build points too.

If you think having all 8 Asc points or having all 100 passive points is mandatory, then you should make the effort to achieve these as a long-term progression goal. Asc points should not be handed over for "free", the same way as lvl 100 points are not handed over for free.

In Std I dont even have Uber unlocked and all my lvl 90+ chars there destroy top-tier content just fine with "only" 6 ascendancy points.

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morbo wrote:

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Zrevnur wrote:

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morbo wrote:

Uber is optional. The same way that having a lvl 100 char is optional.

In the same way as playing PoE is optional. Or posting in this thread.
Which really means that statements about "optional" are just about word definition or about opinion.

No, because you'd never argue that having a lvl 100 char is mandatory to play or complete the game. Or that beating Uber Atziri is required. inb4 "Uber Lab is gating build points" - level 100 is gating build points too.

Maybe you missed the post by "ScrotieMcB". It explains it in a different manner. Phrases like "is optional" rely on a clearly defined context to be (potentially) meaningful. Quoting the post here:

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morbo wrote:

If you think having all 8 Asc points or having all 100 passive points is mandatory, then you should make the effort to achieve these as a long-term progression goal. Asc points should not be handed over for "free", the same way as lvl 100 points are not handed over for free.

I do not know why you are quoting me for this. I do not see a proper connection with my post. Specifically did I in no way suggest making Ascendancy points "free".
IMO power creep should be reduced == the game (mostly normal game play) should be made harder not easier. I am however against "artifical rule breaking" difficulty aka the trap rule set. I also dislike the tendency of GGG to make "the game" harder by adding hard bosses while effectively making mobs easier - due to powercreep.

Oh, ok... If you want an >optimal< build you will defeat Uber Izaro AND level to 100. (but none of this is actually required for your build to clear 100% of the content)

Uber Lab & lvl 100 are for min-maxers. Min-maxing is optional.

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Zrevnur wrote:

I am however against "artifical rule breaking" difficulty aka the trap rule set.

There aren't any written rules to break. There is just game design. GGG decided to make traps do % HP damage, so that they cant be trivialized by overlevelling / overgearing. They made the Lab 1-portal only, so Izaro cant be trivilaized with unlimited flask refills. I'd go even further and make the Lab solo only.

These changes make the Lab a bit more challenging than the rest of the content and that is the actual root of all complaints. Lab can't be mindlessly facerolled - some hate it because of that, some of us love it because of that.

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morbo wrote:

Oh, ok... If you want an >optimal< build you will defeat Uber Izaro AND level to 100. (but none of this is actually required for your build to clear 100% of the content)

Uber Lab & lvl 100 are for min-maxers. Min-maxing is optional.

I do not know if you are just trying to "play word games" here but in that context (of "playing word games") you are strictly wrong. Obviously you need to defeat uber Izaro to clear 100% of the content. Uber Izaro is part of those 100% content.

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morbo wrote:

GGG decided to make traps do % HP damage, so that they cant be trivialized by overlevelling / overgearing.

Whether they wanted to do that or not: They failed to achieve it. Example:
Here is a CI build which supposedly is virtually immune to traps due to regen: https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/4xnyb0/how_does_one_make_a_build_that_can_survive_7/d6h0wqo

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morbo wrote:

These changes make the Lab a bit more challenging than the rest of the content and that is the actual root of all complaints.

Disagree. (Uber) lab (including traps and unbuffed Izaro) is a lot easier and less dangerous than some of the boss fights.

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morbo wrote:

These changes make the Lab a bit more challenging than the rest of the content and that is the actual root of all complaints. Lab can't be mindlessly facerolled - some hate it because of that, some of us love it because of that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

You claim that the Lab's difficulty is the root of all complaints? Show me this thread that focuses on the Lab's difficulty being its chief flaw. I'm not even asking for multiple threads (and there are hundreds); I'm just asking for one.

Right. That's what I thought.

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Zrevnur wrote:

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morbo wrote:

GGG decided to make traps do % HP damage, so that they cant be trivialized by overlevelling / overgearing.

Whether they wanted to do that or not: They failed to achieve it. Example:
Here is a CI build which supposedly is virtually immune to traps due to regen: https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/4xnyb0/how_does_one_make_a_build_that_can_survive_7/d6h0wqo

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morbo wrote:

These changes make the Lab a bit more challenging than the rest of the content and that is the actual root of all complaints.

Disagree. (Uber) lab (including traps and unbuffed Izaro) is a lot easier and less dangerous than some of the boss fights.

You mean the boss fights that people are just skipping ?


Btw, the guy pretends to have 4500 ES regen ... I would like to see that in action, at full EC he has what .... 20% ES regenerated per second, maybe 11% ?
He is not even occultist.
one could ad 4% from consecrated ground ( which is kind of a joke on traps, since it is static ).
20% ES regenerated per second = need need 20k+ ES to reach that 4500 ES regenerated per second.
I'm not saying that it's impossible ( even though I am reaaally doubting ), the guy gives no explanation or anything about how, there is no video either.


Or he means under Vaal discipline, idk.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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morbo wrote:

These changes make the Lab a bit more challenging than the rest of the content and that is the actual root of all complaints. Lab can't be mindlessly facerolled - some hate it because of that, some of us love it because of that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

You claim that the Lab's difficulty is the root of all complaints? Show me this thread that focuses on the Lab's difficulty being its chief flaw. I'm not even asking for multiple threads (and there are hundreds); I'm just asking for one.

Right. That's what I thought.

He might also be assuming that many of those posters are of bad faith.
Definitely not all people do not like it because of the difficulty.
I firmly believe that many people that do not like it, do not like it because of it still.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

You claim that the Lab's difficulty is the root of all complaints? Show me this thread that focuses on the Lab's difficulty being its chief flaw.

Ofc no one would admit that what really bothers them is that the Lab can't be easeily facerolled, like the rest of the (quest) content. It's easier to invent a bunch of silly excuses (Lab is "unrewarding", Lab is "work", etc..) as cover up.

Some go even further: claiming that the Lab is "faceroll", but somehow still an insurmountable obstacle :). If it was "faceroll", you'd just spend that 1-hour it takes to complete all quest Labs without dying and move on to the content you prefer. Instead you created this little cult and harras the whole forum with your Lab shitposts.

Another indicator is the wish to "remove Asc points from Lab" and place them somewhere easier to obtain (quest progress, shortened Izaro fight, etc..).