Nerf life nodes... while boosting base life so life itself isn't nerfed

I think this is a great idea. The numbers you suggest might not be right, but something similar seems like a great way to fix the way life works in the game.

As for making less life nodes but increasing their effectiveness, as suggested by another poster, I think that will make the problem worse actually. The whole idea behind nerfing life is that the life nodes as is are hurting build diversity, because picking the life node over ever other node is almost always the best choice.

If you make less but more effective life nodes, it is true there will be more diversity with the remaining points, but getting those life nodes will be the best choice in an even more extreme way. If each character has to get 10 or so passive nodes, then it is a false choice situation, and it would be better for each character to simply automatically get a life bonus equivalent and then have a real choice with the other passives.

The only thing I am somewhat wary about for your idea is boosting strength to such a degree. I think if you boost strength like that (ie, .05 to 1) you would have to do something to Energy shield on intelligence and evasion for dexterity. That might work, but it is possible your plan could effectively be implemented without this added complication.

All in all though great idea.

Edit for additional thought:

Another benefit to fixing the life problem is that the other defenses will get a chance to shine. The Evasion/energy shield/armour trimuvirate is actually a pretty awesome defense set up for the game, especially because you can combine them in a ton of different ways (ie all evasion, half evasion half armour) As is, this otherwise very interesting part of the game is shadowed over by life.

This is in response to people who think nerfing life will create the same problem, just with DPS instead of life being the thing everybody gets.

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Lyralei wrote:

That's the problem. (Getting a lot of) Life should be a conscious choice, like how you pick % Regeneration to complement it. It shouldn't be mandatory.

Good interaction right now is between ES, Zealot's Oath and ES Cooldown. Both are choices you can make but aren't mandatory. Picking it up also has a detriment, the opportunity cost of going full ES (and CI) is losing any semblance of armour/evasion.

There needs to be a situation where getting 6,000+ life is still viable and makes you strong but does not automatically turn it into the best thing to do. Opportunity cost for choosing that -- I proposed alternative survivability nodes that diversify your choices (Critical Damage % reduction is a good example).

Yes, you would be picking defences up but rather than going all life you now are presented with the opportunity to mitigate aforementioned damage via other means. That should mean a right balance allows you to pick up more offensive nodes, I hope.

As long as changing formula calculations is out of the question, I don't see any of this happening and GGG will probably have a better solution than any of us can come with anyway. Life being mandatory is one thing anyway, it's just that passive trees don't choose much else to compliment it due to how many passive points are spent on the life nodes.

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DoubleSmiggins wrote:

Spoiler

To me, this idea seems like the most simple and straightforward to implement. And because life is so important, it's not necessarily going to just make everyone pick DPS builds; high-life investment builds will still be solid choices, it's just that now getting a bit less isn't the worst idea in the world.

I still feel the other defences will need some buffing, but this is a mandatory first step. I was helping a friend with a build yesterday, and the fact that you have to build in such a way to get all the life was a real turn-off for them.

Thanks DSmiggs, those are two things I was really aiming for an you pulled them out. I'm not trying to nerf life nodes into oblivion, I still want them to be truly attractive, just not as OP as they are now. Also, a lot of my motivation was to increase build diversity for a passive tree perspective, perhaps more so than an actual game perspective. It kind of sucks that the skilldrasil offers such a stunning array of theorhetical options but in practice is about optimizing life node pickup... I can see how this is a huge downer when a PoE vet runs a new player through the passive tree. Ensuring node opportunity cost balance, across broad node types but not for every particular node, ensures build diversity.

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Azdrubel wrote:

Spoiler

While I was like "Meh, another post about hp being mandatory" after reading I have to say "Yeah, looks(!) like a good approach to a real problem." You make your point very clear and comprehensible.
Your solution keeps the spirit of the game how it is atm, that is having to deal with massive amounts of diverse damage where life is the optimal counterweight, while providing an answer to one of the biggest problems to encounter with heavily specialized or extravagant builds, where you actually struggle with content due to an imbalance of taken hp-nodes and progress needed for leveling. The thing is, that with your changes travelling far across the skilltree might actually be rewarded instead of punished. It definitely all makes sense.

I'm thrilled that I was able to pleasantly surprise you, and I too am pleasantly surprised... I didn't even think for a second about how this would effect tree-spanning builds that focus on attribute highways. It should indeed make them a little more viable, which might lead to some very interesting creations down the road. It might also be a problem, as some combinations really aren't supposed to happen and might not be foreseen by devs, much less me. Hopefully, though, this is a good things... at the very least it would be exciting.

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Parrotface wrote:

Spoiler

I think this is a great idea. The numbers you suggest might not be right, but something similar seems like a great way to fix the way life works in the game.

As for making less life nodes but increasing their effectiveness, as suggested by another poster, I think that will make the problem worse actually. The whole idea behind nerfing life is that the life nodes as is are hurting build diversity, because picking the life node over ever other node is almost always the best choice.

If you make less but more effective life nodes, it is true there will be more diversity with the remaining points, but getting those life nodes will be the best choice in an even more extreme way. If each character has to get 10 or so passive nodes, then it is a false choice situation, and it would be better for each character to simply automatically get a life bonus equivalent and then have a real choice with the other passives.

The only thing I am somewhat wary about for your idea is boosting strength to such a degree. I think if you boost strength like that (ie, .05 to 1) you would have to do something to Energy shield on intelligence and evasion for dexterity. That might work, but it is possible your plan could effectively be implemented without this added complication.

All in all though great idea.

Edit for additional thought:

Another benefit to fixing the life problem is that the other defenses will get a chance to shine. The Evasion/energy shield/armour trimuvirate is actually a pretty awesome defense set up for the game, especially because you can combine them in a ton of different ways (ie all evasion, half evasion half armour) As is, this otherwise very interesting part of the game is shadowed over by life.

This is in response to people who think nerfing life will create the same problem, just with DPS instead of life being the thing everybody gets.

I definitely am trying to give the three defenses a chance to shine. More than any other nodes, these were crushed by life being OP, since they are also in the survivability category.

In terms of Int, I think buffing ES nodes (minimum 10% per nonhybrid node) needs to happen; once it does and ES becomes a more viable defense, the Int bonus to ES, along with the mana gain, should be sufficient. Dex is a whole other animal and needs serious work; no great ideas from me yet.

I like it! Pretty straightforward. Maybe the numbers could do with a bit of reworking, half/double seems pretty drastic. I'm more in favor of a 25% decrease in life node power and a 33% increase in flat life power.

I only say that because I don't want GGG to be pressured in to offering full respec.

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glovedust wrote:

I like it! Pretty straightforward. Maybe the numbers could do with a bit of reworking, half/double seems pretty drastic. I'm more in favor of a 25% decrease in life node power and a 33% increase in flat life power.

I only say that because I don't want GGG to be pressured in to offering full respec.

It's pretty easy to change the numbers:
3/4 life node value (8 to 6, 12 to 9, 18 to 15) needs 4/3 base life: 8/level, 0.66 life/Str, starting life unchanged or -5
5/8 life node value (8 to 5, 13 to 8, 18 to 12) needs 8/5 base life: 10/level, 0.75 life/Str, starting life -5
1/2 life node value (8 to 4, 12 to 6, 18 to 9 or 10) needs 2/1 base life: 12/level, 1.0/Str
etc

I went with halving eventually because of the comparison with attack speed nodes. You can increase pretty much all your damage by 4% reliably enough... why should you be able to increase all your survivability by more than that? Still, there are tweaking options if I took it too far.

Poll: what value do you think 8% life nodes should be changed to?

Well, considering they work additively, 8% life nodes should likely be dropped to 5-6%.

By a (very quick) look at the skill tree, I counted 55 8% life nodes. That may be off by 3-5, but it's generally close.

8*55=440% boost to life. 5*55=275% and 6*55=330% boost to life. This isn't counting the 10, and 12% life nodes.

I say 5-6% is good. As long as the base life growth is raised by enough to relatively compensate for such a huge hit (a 100% drop is a lot) to life. Though, that's assuming you get ALL the life nodes, but it would work the same either way proportionately.

4% would be 4*55=220% which would be way too big of a hit imo and 7% wouldn't be a big enough change. 7*55=385%

If you want the game to be less "Get dem life nodes" then I would say lower it to 5% to be conservative about it, going too far, rather than not far enough, and raise the HP rates accordingly.

Who knows, maybe 4.8% would be better. Let's get out dem decimals. :P (4.8*55=264%)

Also, just in case there is someone more extreme than me who wants a polling option:
3/8 life nodes (8% to 3%, 12% to 5%, 18% to 7%) would need 8/3 base life (16 life/level, 1.33 life per Str, still -10 starting life)
In my opinion this is too big a change and probably more than the game could handle.

Tremor, if decimals are an option, it would likely make the math/balancing for life/level etc. too complicated (or at least too ugly, you might end up with things like 11 life per level)... plus, decimals would make an already intimidating passive tree even more intimidating and should be avoided if possible.

But if they were, I probably would have suggested 4.5% instead of 4%. Honestly, I'd be just about as happy with 5%, although ever-so-slightly happier with 4%; I think both would work okay but that 4% is more of a sure thing that would prevent having to do another passive tree redesign (except they probably wouldn't, so it might just remain unfixed, whicch would suck). I feel that 6% life nodes wouldn't really fix the problem and that life would still be king under such a system.

Well, since it is a poll, perhaps I should actually choose a value, rather than suggesting options. Lol

I say 5%. Simply because 4% seems like too much of an overall hit. I want Stacking HP to still be a viable option for tanky builds, but not absolutely necessary for every single build.

I feel 4% starts going towards the direction where HP nodes become "If you have NOTHING else to get, get those". It's not in that direction, but it's starting to cross the line, imo. 5% is right in the sweet spot where it's "They are viable option." for any build, but at the same time, they aren't OP where it's "Get those before anything else." I want it to be a split decision, where HP nodes and any other choice are equal.

Obviously, that can't happen perfeclty as build choice should matter, meaning HP nodes would mean more (based on changing the STR and base growth) for tanky builds like Templars and especially Marauders.

I just don't want to be able to completely discount HP nodes as a witch. Which is what I think 4% would do.

So 5%. 5/8 so 8/5 for the base life and HP growth due to Str.

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Flab wrote:

How do you figure this wouldn't be a nerf? The only reason my 300% life increase has any value at all is because of HP from gear. This thread needs a rethink.

Edit: I missed the part where strength's life is double, which helps. Some quick guesstimation still puts my current build at significantly lower life though.

I don't think nerfing the life nodes a bit (75%) and bumping the base life is a bad idea at all, but too much and it has a bunch of homogenizing effects that I'm not particularly fond of. It also doesn't address the real issue with defenses, we stack life because armour and evasion isn't general, consistent and reliable enough to value highly. Life will still be king, but now everybody will have similar amounts of life whether they spend on it or not.

If life nodes become less attractive, defense nodes become more attractive, and defenses might become viable. Might. But the real issue here is a passive tree issue; people overspend on life nodes because they are too good. And actually, 4% would still be good enough where people would take them, just not take them exclusively (as you have, if you have 300% increased life).

Regarding life affix gear, I did think of it during this suggestion, and chose not to buff it. Two reasons:
1) Not sure if I even could. There are no gear wipes from here on, as promised by GGG, and they actually lack the ability to mass-edit existing gear (no find/replace type function). So buffing existing life gear is flat-out impossible, and buffing newly dropped/crafted gear may or may not be doable (honestly I don't know).
2) even if I could buff it, not entirely inclined to. Life affix on gear is currently just about as OP as life nodes, its the first affix everyone wants and matters more than defensive values. I figured stealth-nerfing it through my suggestion would be a good thing, although admittedly makes my thread title a tad misleading.

Did I go too far? Quite possibly, assuming new drops/crafts can indeed be changed. Here's what I propose:
*8% to 6% version: zero change to life affixes. This is, of course, a stealth nerf.
*8% to 5% version: Change life affixes on gear to match integral energy shield affixes, meaning a max of +145. This isn't as strong as an 8/5 multiplier (that would give a max of about 170), so it's a slight nerf, but not too overpowering, and the reflection with ES is aesthetically pleasing to me.
*8% to 4% version: Same as 5% except also add amulet affix that grants % life, at 75% of the values of the ES affix of the same type (max +17%). This would give life stackers a specific item and slot to make up for lost life% from this suggestion, specifically compared to the 5% version.