Melee balance

In some games, AOE is even built into melee attacks (e.g. TOS) and which works quite well. Let's be honest, when you take a swing with your weapon, especially with a two hander, how likely it is to hit multiple targets? So I think melee splash support gem is really unnecessary. GGG should make all melee attack splash, with the exception of some dagger/claw or dedicated single target skill. In that case, melee skill can have an additional support gem and makes it more attractive.

But I believe that the problem really lies within the way we click on mobs and how often we misses it, having an option to auto aim the nearest mob on attack should be built into melee skills. Otherwise you will be missing out 100% of the damage when attack or 33% if attached to a Multistrike if you accidentally miss the aim. And why do we need to suffer the chance to miss attack at a minimum of 5% without Resolute Technic? While casters never have this problem? I see that 5% can apply to long range attacks, but melee.. that draw back is unnecessary.

1) Increase base damage of melee splash skills

2) Remove the penalty to surounding targets from melee splash

3) Make them have built in fortify

4) Make them receive by default 50% reduced reflected damage(nice synergy with slayer ascedancy)

Then people MIGHT start using them again. Even with all these only flicker strike might get abit broken, but still, flicker is the most dangerous skill in the game. It is incosistent and it is horrible for parties. I do not think that a competetive player ever used flicker.

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Ceryneian wrote:

-Snip-

Look, we can go around in circles debating semantics. I use deliberate out-of-the-way arguments to point out flaws in somebody's argument, not because those things are particularly good.

You said physical spells were broken hence why HoG was easy. I said EK. You backtracked. Mission accomplished.


You say melee can't get to Witch alchemist nodes? If shadows with a bow spec can make their way down to the duelist tree for golem's blood, bravery, vitality void, and fury bolts, what makes you say that a ranger or marauder can't reach Alchemist? Because that's just about the same sort of travel arc. More like the fact that alchemist just doesn't pay for the opportunity cost of getting to it. Which, oh hey, means it's not as ridiculous as you contend it is, otherwise everyone would flock up there. Kind of like everyone flocked to Ondar's Guile and got it gutted!

***

As for the rest of this thread's arguments, I'm deliberately rules-lawyering it up, because the semantics are important.

People say "but...melee!" and I ask for a definition. Melee tag? Sunder, EQ, ground slam, potentially lightning strike, flicker strike, and cyclone, all of which are in good places.

Anything with a short range? CoC discharge/physical, blade vortex.

Yes, I know what you guys are talking about. The old, outdated Path of Exile 1.0 melee skills. Stuff like heavy strike, double strike, and other glorified basic attacks. Okay, they're bad. Sort of like ice spear is bad, like ball lightning and magma orb are bad. Like power siphon is bad, like burning arrow/rain of arrows is bad, and so on.

There's a lot of stuff that's fallen to the wayside because of mechanics, and the general fact that PoE has sped up over time, and left skills everywhere behind, not just melee 1.0.

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lugaluga wrote:

But I believe that the problem really lies within the way we click on mobs and how often we misses it, having an option to auto aim the nearest mob on attack should be built into melee skills. Otherwise you will be missing out 100% of the damage when attack or 33% if attached to a Multistrike if you accidentally miss the aim. And why do we need to suffer the chance to miss attack at a minimum of 5% without Resolute Technic? While casters never have this problem? I see that 5% can apply to long range attacks, but melee.. that draw back is unnecessary.

Casters also have this problem. When you use a projectile skill with pretty slow projectile speed, you may often fail hitting an enemy, aspecially fast-moving one.
The problem is, base projectile speed for bows/wand are so high that it's almost impossible. And spells, that can fail targeting due to projectile speed, are either used with multi=projectile supports, or are junk.
Have you heard about Arctic Breath build without GMP support? Of course you didnt, cause it will miss all the time, just like targeted melee attacks.

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IlyaK1986 wrote:

Anything with a short range?

Yes, that's my definition of "melee".
Some "melee" builds are kinda OK, indeed, but they're exceptions, mainly because of highly overpowered skills. Most melee builds are in kinda bad place.

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IlyaK1986 wrote:

Look, we can go around in circles debating semantics. I use deliberate out-of-the-way arguments to point out flaws in somebody's argument, not because those things are particularly good.

This is not about semantics. This is about you trying to troll this thread (and other melee threads) by claiming melee is "good" because you want to consider broken spell builds like BV, Discharge and VMS as "melee" builds.

We are clearly talking about melee ATTACK builds.

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IlyaK1986 wrote:

You said physical spells were broken hence why HoG was easy. I said EK. You backtracked. Mission accomplished.

Nope, I said Blade Vortex is broken. And it is true that phys spells in general have an easier time on HoG. EK is a subset of phys spells that still cannot compare to BV's damage.

The fact that you pointed out EK as a skill that has a harder time on HoG than BV - doesn't contribute anything to this discussion except emphasize how broken BV is.

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IlyaK1986 wrote:

You say melee can't get to Witch alchemist nodes? If shadows with a bow spec can make their way down to the duelist tree for golem's blood, bravery, vitality void, and fury bolts, what makes you say that a ranger or marauder can't reach Alchemist? Because that's just about the same sort of travel arc. More like the fact that alchemist just doesn't pay for the opportunity cost of getting to it. Which, oh hey, means it's not as ridiculous as you contend it is, otherwise everyone would flock up there. Kind of like everyone flocked to Ondar's Guile and got it gutted!

No not everyone can go to Witch. They rarely go to Witch area because a) there are no melee nodes there, b) they cannot afford to because it takes too much points.

BV can go there because it is i) spell, ii) ES, and iii) BV scales so well you do NOT NEED many nodes to get high damage so you can afford to spend nodes elsewhere.

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IlyaK1986 wrote:

As for the rest of this thread's arguments, I'm deliberately rules-lawyering it up, because the semantics are important.

People say "but...melee!" and I ask for a definition. Melee tag? Sunder, EQ, ground slam, potentially lightning strike, flicker strike, and cyclone, all of which are in good places.

Anything with a short range? CoC discharge/physical, blade vortex.

Yes, I know what you guys are talking about. The old, outdated Path of Exile 1.0 melee skills. Stuff like heavy strike, double strike, and other glorified basic attacks. Okay, they're bad. Sort of like ice spear is bad, like ball lightning and magma orb are bad. Like power siphon is bad, like burning arrow/rain of arrows is bad, and so on.

There's a lot of stuff that's fallen to the wayside because of mechanics, and the general fact that PoE has sped up over time, and left skills everywhere behind, not just melee 1.0.

Bro, of course we are talking about melee ATTACK builds. What else would we be talking about? This is not a legal case, do you really need a definition of what melee is?

Again, if you want to talk about OP "melee" spell builds - they do not belong in this discussion.

Pseudo-range skills like Sunder, EQ? Lightning Strike? You mean the Lightning Strike which everyone is playing as ranged these days because going melee is suicide? Flicker strike - have you tried this? Cyclone? Yes, the cyclone everyone is using for their CoC SPELL builds???

I'm wondering if you have ever actually played a melee attack build in post-2.0

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Ceryneian wrote:

Pseudo-range skills like Sunder, EQ? Lightning Strike? You mean the Lightning Strike which everyone is playing as ranged these days because going melee is suicide? Flicker strike - have you tried this? Cyclone? Yes, the cyclone everyone is using for their CoC SPELL builds???

So not only does it have to be a melee attack, it also has to scale with weapon damage, and on top of that, anything that has any non-negligible AoE component you deride as "semi-ranged".

Listen...

I'm not even sure how to explain this to you because any skill that gets enough AoE so that players actually use it, you'll just deride as "semi-ranged". The way I see it is this:

The melee skills you complain about are simply mechanically inferior to any other decent method that rewards you for going near mobs. Think about all the other short ranged builds you deride as broken (aka CoC cyclone, VMS--which btw is getting gutted, and Blade Vortex).

They can do damage while moving. Archers and wanders have to stop, but they have range. Casters have range, or they have terrific close range AoE, and most likely better movement.

GGG isn't going to hose the mechanically superior skills (AKA just about anything) so much that melee attack builds will pay for their opportunity cost--ever.

we can close this thread now?

garbage is garbage and 2.3 notes brings an end to any hope they will ever consider melee RT builds. they are thrash and people playing them are mostly noobs that do not know better (i also play them but i couldnt care less about efficiency)

melee RT builds - no matter if dual strike or EQ - are CRAP. sorry but these are CRAP. laughable damage, mediocre defences. sure, you can stack bazzilion AR rating. let us know how does that help vs Uber, vs Avatar of Thunder or vs Death and Taxes. ill - out of mercy - ignore Core and stuff. when using mirrored weapons these maybe can be done. but im not so sure.

id like GGG to remove all 'phys melee attack damage', all 'damage with weapons' (but leave attack speed for whirl blades and CoCS) etc nodes. remove all skills that are not used to proc CoCS. and wait what happens.

i bet most players wouldnt notice


Im still waiting for a comment on a contest (showing just how garbage melee is in this game):

100000 USD prize.
1000 slots, each 100 USD entry fee (so competitors are 'pro' players and have a solid urge to win)
One winner.

Rules: the least 'time played' needed to reach 100. trading, partying allowed and encouraged. players can have 'carries' etc. however it is not a zombie-race so you can sleep and rest - it is the least played contest.

tell me: who would EVER consider playing melee attack build in such scenario? thank you, i knew the answer

as long as the answer is obvious - melee is GARBAGE and we can close this thread and never waste our time again

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sidtherat wrote:

we can close this thread now?

garbage is garbage and 2.3 notes brings an end to any hope they will ever consider melee RT builds. they are thrash and people playing them are mostly noobs that do not know better (i also play them but i couldnt care less about efficiency)

melee RT builds - no matter if dual strike or EQ - are CRAP. sorry but these are CRAP. laughable damage, mediocre defences. sure, you can stack bazzilion AR rating. let us know how does that help vs Uber, vs Avatar of Thunder or vs Death and Taxes. ill - out of mercy - ignore Core and stuff. when using mirrored weapons these maybe can be done. but im not so sure.

id like GGG to remove all 'phys melee attack damage', all 'damage with weapons' (but leave attack speed for whirl blades and CoCS) etc nodes. remove all skills that are not used to proc CoCS. and wait what happens.

i bet most players wouldnt notice


Im still waiting for a comment on a contest (showing just how garbage melee is in this game):

100000 USD prize.
1000 slots, each 100 USD entry fee (so competitors are 'pro' players and have a solid urge to win)
One winner.

Rules: the least 'time played' needed to reach 100. trading, partying allowed and encouraged. players can have 'carries' etc. however it is not a zombie-race so you can sleep and rest - it is the least played contest.

tell me: who would EVER consider playing melee attack build in such scenario? thank you, i knew the answer

as long as the answer is obvious - melee is GARBAGE and we can close this thread and never waste our time again

Exactly. Without spell block you get fucked as melee lol. Hence why I like how Izaro is melee friendly.

Yay, no melee buffs. In other news: coc, bladefall mines, bv, la frostwall untouched. Gonna be a fun expansion watching this same embarrassing shit rape the game while melee guys just pick up their balls and go home.

/thread

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Ceryneian wrote:

Yay, no melee buffs. In other news: coc, bladefall mines, bv, la frostwall untouched. Gonna be a fun expansion watching this same embarrassing shit rape the game while melee guys just pick up their balls and go home.

/thread

I bet there will be quite some 'lacerate' build going around though, since it has range and aoe. So, I think the only way melee players survives nowadays is look past those single target skills, and just focus on those with long range, aoe skills.