SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Fruz wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

But they are reasons to do this, they are not as "super-concentrated" and fixed as you say, not more fixed than the mobs in a map.

Intricate locker are a solution to eventually get a really good unique.
Argus ( sometimes in a completely pointless side room for many builds ) does not always spawn at the same place, and is worth killing for more reward, but you don't have to if you rush for enchantements
Lockers that give an extra keys <- same as killing argus.

You give examples of piñatas (or keys to a piñata that is available at the end of the run), which do not contradict my point at all. They only illustrate it.

My example of trash collector was not to say that Labyrinth gameplay is equally unfun (though who knows, maybe garbage collecting is more fun than we realize!) but rather to illustrate that we work for an extrinsic reward, and we play for an intrinsic reward. The difference is important. I daresay it is the most important factor to consider when designing reward structures for a video game (any video game, of any genre).

Most players, even fans of this content, agree that the pleasure derived from the Labyrinth is far more concentrated at the piñatas than it is during play. That, by definition, is an extrinsic reward.

Do you actually believe that this isn't a completely moot point ? Like seriously ?

Give me one example of an area that people would do again and over and over if there was literally 0 reward in it ?
Can you ?
I guess not, for a very good reason : people want reward for their invested play time, period.

How those rewards are split could be a good point, but I just showed you that all the part of the lab can be involved in getting significant rewards already.

From the very moment that grinding is involved, everything people do is for the extrinsic rewards.
Your point would have made some sense if there was nothing but Izaro to reward the player ( significantly enough ), but it is not the case.

Based on everything you said, I think you are not grasping my point at all, since you talk about things completely unrelated to it and don't even address it. ("0 reward?" What?)

I'm sorry, Fruz. I don't know how to make it any clearer. I think if I re-explain it any more times the other people following this thread will get really annoyed and really bored--simultaneously.

If something specific about it is unclear, feel free to say so, and I will try to clarify it.

Perhaps the problem is that you think that ARPG players grind exclusively for extrinsic rewards, and not at all for intrinsic rewards? That suggests that every single PoE player in existence is playing this game as if it were a job, and not because they enjoy it. You realize that is a demonstrably false claim, right?

I'm at a loss as how to make this distinction clearer to you. If you are genuinely curious to understand it, and not merely looking to argue, reading this will probably put you on the right path: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reward_system

I expect some changes in 3.0, at the very least I assume we will do trials only the first time we visit the first three acts. Which is something at least, that's one part of the lab experience I won't miss, I'm currently fine with doing it once in Normal but Cruel and Merciless is overdoing it.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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Or you didn't understand mine, in which case you could keep your condescending tone for yourself, actually.

It's pretty simple, a situation were the only reward would be the fun to play it ( so no great item, no currency etc ... ) would be a situation with purely intrinsic "rewards" <=> 0 extrinsic reward.

Would people play such a game and repeat it's content ( as we all do in Path of Exile ) ?
Once maybe, and then ... they likely leave.

=> If there were no extrinsic rewards, the game would have been dead, a very long time ago.
The only reason for people to grind, are extrinsic rewards.
There is a part of intrinsic rewards of course, but the game would not be here without extrinsic rewards, it's simple as that.

No carrot => no game ( or no grind, so in our case => no game ), period.

There are extrinsic rewards raining literally everywhere in the game, the lab has somewhat more because it's more risky than most of the content ( and it's gated ), which makes less people want to run it => it increases the value of the rewards in there even more.
And you were thinking that those intrinsic rewards were only at the very end of the lab, and you were wrong.
Those are concentrated mostly around some spots in the lab, a little bit everywhere, ( the same way there are more rewards where there are strongboxes for example, and at the boss of a map ).
So basically, it's more or like the rest of the game, the difference is quite small, it's high level content and you cannot increase the quantity of things drop from every mob ( => efficiency and extrinsic rewards from killing those mobs ), so it's more interesting to target objectives.

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raics wrote:

I expect some changes in 3.0, at the very least I assume we will do trials only the first time we visit the first three acts. Which is something at least, that's one part of the lab experience I won't miss, I'm currently fine with doing it once in Normal but Cruel and Merciless is overdoing it.

already excited how their overhaul will change it.

from the game's new flow we enter sarn city twice and since the labyrinth is bound to it there is the option to have the player running it twice plus the map one.

thing is, it doesn't really make sense lore wise to have the player running the lab on the second visit.

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Fruz wrote:

And you were thinking that those intrinsic rewards were only at the very end of the lab, and you were wrong.

Sigh. No, Fruz. The rewards at the end of the lab are not intrinsic; they are extrinsic--by definition. Nor are the rewards you get when you open chests, lockers, etc.

That is my entire point.

Never mind. I am sorry you found my attempts to explain condescending. We can agree to disagree on this point. I happily rest my case as I have made it above, for anyone wishing to look.

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vio wrote:

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raics wrote:

I expect some changes in 3.0, at the very least I assume we will do trials only the first time we visit the first three acts. Which is something at least, that's one part of the lab experience I won't miss, I'm currently fine with doing it once in Normal but Cruel and Merciless is overdoing it.

already excited how their overhaul will change it.

from the game's new flow we enter sarn city twice and since the labyrinth is bound to it there is the option to have the player running it twice plus the map one.

thing is, it doesn't really make sense lore wise to have the player running the lab on the second visit.

I suppose it doesn't, who knows, maybe only the uber will remain a full labyrinth and the rest will be done in a series of longer trials. Or maybe we will enter it on our second visit to Sarn after we unlock the trials along the way, get 4 points and then another 4 in uber.

I suppose even people who love the lab to distraction won't commit sudoku if we only get to run it twice for points, you can farm it to your heart's content anyway.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

@goetzjam Turtledove's point is that direct control of your player is superior to point-and-click for intricate piloting. I expect the Labyrinth will be considerably more fun to play on Xbone, for the same reason FPSs are considerably more fun to play on PC (imo) than on consoles. You can disagree with that point, because it is an opinion, but I think you would find yourself in a small minority in that case, just like people who prefer console-style FPS controls are in a small minority

Point and click IS direct control at the most extreme levels, you can have far more accuracy on moving your character with keyboard and mouse then you EVER could have with a controller. Which is why Chris was originally skeptical of a console version to begin with.


The lab will be worst to play on a controller then it would be with keyboard and mouse, to say otherwise IMO is just making an ignorant statement with nothing to back it up with. If you really want to prove this grab a steam controller or something, set yourself up with a similar button scheme that GGG has shown on the videos and play the lab with your controller. Hell instead of a mouse just use a trackball style mouse instead, its essentially the same level of control as you are getting with a joystick.


Furthermore you are ignoring some of the more important aspects of my post, on how the lab traps are more forgiving then frogger and all that.



What some people don't realize is that in one of the videos about the next expansion Chris talks about the lab some more, re-instating the idea that they are OK with content that doesn't make everyone equally as happy. If anything this is just further indication that GGG isn't going to make AC points available outside the lab, if not 3.0, then likely ever. I think its the gamespot one or something.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

And you were thinking that those intrinsic rewards were only at the very end of the lab, and you were wrong.

Sigh. No, Fruz. The rewards at the end of the lab are not intrinsic; they are extrinsic--by definition. Nor are the rewards you get when you open chests, lockers, etc.

That is my entire point.

Misstyped, I actually meant extrinsic here.
(otherwise the rest of the post wouldnt make any sense)

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Fruz wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

And you were thinking that those intrinsic rewards were only at the very end of the lab, and you were wrong.

Sigh. No, Fruz. The rewards at the end of the lab are not intrinsic; they are extrinsic--by definition. Nor are the rewards you get when you open chests, lockers, etc.

That is my entire point.

Misstyped, I actually meant extrinsic here.
(otherwise the rest of the post wouldnt make any sense)

I am saying this as lighthearted as possible, but its often the case that your posts dont make any sense, so we all assumed that this was one of the cases again. You are not the only one though, so thats something.

I'm not expecting you to understand everything that I say, but I don't think that you actually even tried this time.

No problem.