SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]
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I would like to propose alternative ascension method XI. It's not my favorite but I still think it is a reasonable and good solution.
XI) Remove ascendancy points from the game. Ascension could just be granting a title. The advantages are that the lore remains close to intact, Labyrinth is made truly optional, power creep and future balance is not an issue. Some form of ascendancy points could remain in the game, if this option was paired with one of the other solutions. Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support (thread # 1702621) Thank you all! GGG will implement a different method for ascension in PoE2. Retired!
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"Not responding to any of the other drivel. First, it's not personal preference, it's solid design. If all enemies are the same, then there isn't diversity of play, which means there isn't more than a small handful of preferences appealed to. That's why I said having some unkillable and/or leech-immune enemies is a good thing, and having some percent-instead-of-flat damage effects is a good thing. The biggest problem with their implementation of these two entirely separate concepts (unkillable, and percentage-damage) is that they're overly concentrated in one place. Not just the Lab, but even on the same enemies (every immortal enemy in the game currently deals percent-damage). Good design would have been to spread traps, in lower concentrations, all over Wraeclast (or at least as a map affix, if Trials as tutorials are really that damn important); to have less traps in the labirynth; to include multiple trap types which do flat damage the normal way; to design at least one normal, killable enemy which deals percent-damage. This would create a far wider variety of play experiences and not make the Lab feel so different from normal play (the attempt limit is already all the uniqueness the Lab requires, all by itself). I'm not sure different is better, but variety is better. The problem is actually a failure to maximize the possible combinations, thus failing to capitalize on potential variety. The rest of the game is XXX, the labirynth is YYY; this ignores XXY, XYX, and XYY (although I think the attempt limit mechanic should be a Lab exclusive, so I'd ignore YXX, YXY, YYX). Lastly, you're not really trying to fix anything. This thread has always been about running from a problem rather than solving it. "I hate the Lab, so let's make it so the Lab is optional." Cowardice and passive-aggression. The proper approach is "I hate the Lab, so let's make it so I like the Lab." When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB on May 21, 2016, 1:20:50 PM
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" Sorry dude, but this is not correct. Dweller is just a quest with normal poe gameplay. That quest is not gated behind some trap bullshit or some puzzle bullshit, but behind get to that area and kill the monster, as 100% of other PoE content. " Its ok to have unkillable enemies. But having a sequence of traps is boring fucking gameplay in a arpg game. " This doesnt change the core problem. Doesnt matter do trap do 1/4 dmg or are the fixed dmg. " Trials are least of the problems. Lab is the biggest one, as its both to long, you can not exit it, and last, has most of the longest section of traps in it. " Shorter ,removed, whatever is better than this. But if only one section of lab has trap segments that you need to go around, it will always be crap and a problem. " This are all wrong questions that dont improve or change anything with the lab,for people that hate that type of gamplay. The core problem of the lab is different type of gameplay. That type of gameplay people just dont enjoy and are not playing diablo like arpg because of them. And this would not be a problem, if the lab was totally optional content, but they put the subclasses behind it, a new mechanic and core part of the game now. The only way to fix this problem is to give players additional way to get the sub class, without the need to do the traps bullshit. That option, can be harder than the lab it self, or even cost like pay few chaos to skip to the boss or something like that. But you must understand, the problem of the lab is gameplay type that people dont like and is very different than all other parts of POE and generally all diablo like games. Last edited by miljan on May 21, 2016, 1:48:52 PM
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I guess price for endgame lab rush will be higher,like 15-20c in HC.So for 4 labs around 30-35c.Not too much to pay to someone to get rid of shitholes and get points as fastest as possible.
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" Good, as I did the same. Or better said send a msg to ZiggyD on youtube. Last edited by miljan on May 21, 2016, 1:46:16 PM
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By the logic of most of the pro-lab people they like the idea of adding a chess game (like WOW has) into the lab to add diversification to it and to make the game harder.
The argument is that the Lab is disliked by a significant percentage. No one knows the percentage no matter how many times people pretend they do. But its hated with a passion and this is splitting the community. If you watch streamers there are a lot of really vehement anti Lab players and streamers. No one knows how many honestly so stop making stuff up. Back in beta I had a conversation similar to this about making a flag to prevent loot from being shareable in pick up groups because there were people who would not kill mobs but wait for loot to drop. They insisted (nicely and respectively unlike most of the posters here) that shared loot was a nice competitive thing and the lead developer liked it to much and thought it was too good for the game to change but they understood why I hated it. They changed their minds because it was a polarizing issue even though they dislike the individual loot mechanic, the divide was bad for the game. Most of the posters are sprouting the QQ or pretending their crystal ball understands how many people prefer the lab as a gear and skill check. What we know (and not from this thread, mainly from being on twitch and reading chat) this is a polarizing issue with a lot of twitch chat activity. This is even dragging down the excitement in the twitch community for the expansion a little due to conversions like this. Having issues like this is horrible for a game. | |
"You're responding to my later bullet points here; you're bringing up traps. I brought up Dweller of the Deep (and, knowing you guys, probably will again) for a reason - no one is saying it's awesome design or that it isn't boring. Rewards are arbitrarily gated behind all kinds of stuff, and finding enjoyment in such quests is ON YOU, usually in the form of trying to get it over with ASAP. "It isn't non-ARPG gameplay. It's a combination of an immunity and a different way of doing damage. They're exactly the right questions because they deal with trap design. You say you do not like trap design, and yeah, there are design flaws. You say you hate that type of gameplay, but you seem completely unwilling to break that statement down, to investigate what thing or things precisely you hate about it. As I said earlier, asking for an alternate source of Ascendancy is running away from the problem. You're unwilling to really fix things, to really analyze what's going on. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB on May 21, 2016, 2:01:53 PM
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" I do like the high level thought that making the lab fun instead of optional is an important first step in the thought process. Miljan I think does a good job explaining why I don't think that high level plan would work when you got into the details. My fear is that it would further contaminate PoE game play in other PoE content and make it feel like trap game play. If that happened then my internal conflict/dilemma would be immediately solved because I'd feel the game I loved was lost forever and I'd have to be satisfied with D3 or something. Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support (thread # 1702621) Thank you all! GGG will implement a different method for ascension in PoE2. Retired!
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" The problem is not is it gated, the problem is what type of gameplay is it gated behind. Yes, they are gated, and we are asking it to be gated not behind traps, but behind monsters and boss killing. Gating things was never ever a problem here. We are not asking for free points. " It's essentially a non arpg gameplay. A sequence of timed mechanics that you need to skip and run around is a pure platofrmer gameplay of the olds, with some small puzzles put in there also. Not a arpg one. The reason why I dont like lab is because i dont like playing platformer games. Its not running from the problem. It's giving additional way around the problem. Because the problem are traps, and the only way to fix it is to make traps do nothing like what was done in diablo 2. But even than traps will not be liked, just ignored (and this will also probably piss of people that like the lab). I did not hear one suggestion how you can make lab more fun with traps for people that dont like that type of gameplay and I really dont see a way how it can be done. The only thing your suggestion improve is make lab less shitty, but still crap and not fun (it is better than nothing, for sure, but doesnt make the core problem fixed or lab fun) Last edited by miljan on May 21, 2016, 3:03:00 PM
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Also if you think adding bizarre content that out side the genre doesn't damage games, look at what adding gated PVE content to a PVP game in DAOC. If your asking what the hell Dark age of Camelot, well thats my point :). They basically added a gated required PVE expansion and their numbers plummeted and it became an even more niche game.
I am not saying anything that drastic will happen here but those that say adding platform content can't damage the game over time, it might (or might not). |
