Greece financial crisis

Spoiler
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SkyCore wrote:
Iv been thinking a lot about economics recently...

Historically the value of things and services is based on the market with factors such as supply, demand, regulation, proprietary patents/ trade secrets, competition, and costs of production. But such things are ephemeral; supply can be controlled, demand can be manipulated through advertisement, regulations come and go, secrets can be shared, and costs are also all affected by these same things.

But when you really think about goods and services, the 'true' value is in their utility. How useful, necessary, or entertaining are they. And for how long do they retain their value. We dont have metrics for such utility. And only such a metric would show the 'true' health of a country. Any type of deep analysis on the economy is doomed to fail when sales of cosmetics and pop music are treated the same as food and tools.

Money was a great invention in the ancient times. It replaced the need to carry around ones own produced goods for bartering purposes. Capitalism has risen to dominate the world. But it is fundamentally flawed . It places people and organizations in competition with one another rather than promoting mutual optimal gains to society through cooperation. The incentives are such that knowledge (trade secrets/ patents) is hoarded and not shared, that prices are as high as possible to maximize gains, and employees are given the lowest possible wage. All of this is detrimental to the vast majority of the populace.

With the industrial age came a massive increase in production (and reduction of costs of production) and its associated increase in standard of living. The information age brought to the world digital goods which could be mass replicated and distributed at virtually 0 cost. It had the potential for the free exchange of information (which is the single greatest contribution to the rate of technological growth). The beginnings of the meta-information age are here now. An age that can render all human labor unnecessary as goods can be both produced and transported at 0 cost. It is the era of artificial intelligence that can bring us to a post scarcity society.

Money is an ancient concept and our markets have had thousands... hundreds of thousands of patches through regulation in an attempt to make our financial systems continue to work in the face of technological progress and even more ways of exploiting that system. Exploits such as market manipulation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_manipulation), price fixing, price gouging, and many many more have the aim of diverting wealth to their conspirators without any real gain to society. And that's the key concept 'benefiting society'. Money is blind to this most essential aspect. And we need to tightly couple monetary gain with benefiting society so as to provide incentive to the later.

If we examine the world with an eye on the benefit to society:

-patents and copyrights are counterproductive. When some new idea is invented, its unlimited sharing should result into a massive positive gain for society. But instead patents and copyrights limit and even discourage the sharing of information. The problem is that there is no reward for creating a new idea, only in selling it. Which is indicative of the deeper issue which is money being a limited transferable thing that can only be created by a collusion between the banks and government, rather than being tied directly to the benefit of society. And thus in some way fails when we have a near infinite capacity to produce and distribute some goods.

-banks provide services that in the past required manpower but can now be automated and delivered for a cost of pennies per year on their networked smart phone. But modern banking has seen a vast increase in fees to their customers whom have no choice but to accept it. Think of all the resources that are be wasted on traditional banks; tellers, bankers, security, janitors, buildings, land, etc.

-branding, name recognition, and advertisement provide nearly zero gains for society... some would even argue that it is detrimental to society. What a massive waste of resources to produce the massive volume of advertisement that we see now in both the mass media and the internet. But even more so, a massive loss in time for those that are subjected to it.

I could go on and on, but i think the idea is clear. We dont need or even want the majority of businesses. And governmental regulations regardless of intentions or how well constructed are futile in that the economy is fundamentally flawed.

80% of american workers could be replaced with technology which already exists. And that number is growing daily. Very soon, we will achieve a post scarcity society. And with it will come immense turmoil to every aspect of our lives if we try to continue to hold onto our obsolete systems.

The time to design and transition into a new economic system is NOW. BEFORE that time arrives, to minimize the damage and reduce the future shock.


i was actually thinking about stuff like this while getting ready this morning. About how strange of a place have we come to where being a business major is about the best possible way to get ahead in life. Your entire life work is wheeling in dealing in other people's work of life, and captalizing/making way more money than the people actually doing the work. It is a pretty messed up place we have found ourselves in. The value of money/economy is based on how much money people owe, how much debt you can carry, and how much interest runs on the debt you carry: How much money can you move around. Significant works do not matter as much as branding and packaging and lending and advertising. Life has become very strange indeed.
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Last edited by LostForm on Jul 9, 2015, 11:38:58 AM
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LostForm wrote:

i was actually thinking about stuff like this while getting ready this morning. About how strange of a place have we come to where being a business major is about the best possible way to get ahead in life. Your entire life work is wheeling in dealing in other people's work of life, and captalizing/making way more money than the people actually doing the work. It is a pretty messed up place we have found ourselves in. The value of money/economy is based on how much money people owe, how much debt you can carry, and how much interest runs on the debt you carry: How much money can you move around. Significant works do not matter as much as branding and packaging and lending and advertising. Life has become very strange indeed.


The theory says that entrepeneurs have to take a lot more risk and responsibility. Think it this way: they have to organize many people, and their mistakes can fuck up a whole organization.

The theory says that capital is important because it represents the availability of resources and capital goods needed to work. Things like banks are needed to capitalize big projects.

The theory says that marketing (specifically the whole branding and advertising) is needed to fill the information gap between the consumer and the product or service.

That being said, all this is abusable in practice, but this are necessary evils until something better comes along.
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my points of contention or bafflement dont come from the theories but the actual applications and how far afield from the necessary 'evils' they started as.


questions like 'why is kanye west more valuable to society than middle school math teachers?'

or why does a stock portfolio manager make more than small business workers in a large varities of fields.
Hey...is this thing on?
Last edited by LostForm on Jul 9, 2015, 3:25:23 PM
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LostForm wrote:


my points of contention or bafflement dont come from the theories but the actual applications and how far afield from the necessary 'evils' they started as.


questions like 'why is kanye west more valuable to society than middle school math teachers?'

or why does a stock portfolio manager make more than small business workers in a large varities of fields.


Thing with famous people is that they they have a lot of demand, so their value increases, and teachers are undervalued. That is more a problem with society per se, rather than capitalism. The costs are going to be stupid in the future, so this doesn't come free.

And the stock portfolio manager probably has a lot of ways of screwing up, so it's a variant of my other post.

I don't like it too, but it's not like it doesn't make sense.
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nero, the things i am talking about are not the product of capitalism or a knock against capitalism. More of problems inherent to money being disconnected from reality and basically an artificial social construct. It is why things like quanitative easing can happen, and no I am not knocking quanitative easing either, it was necessary since we gave pretty much all the money in the world to one entity, but rather using it to illustrate that money does not have value except in terms of 'money', it is circular and not based on anything except how much money begets money.

These things are reality, and you can even trace the history of how we got here, but it doesnt mean it makes sense or isnt set up specifically as a social construct. Much of recent (last 30 years or so) economic policy has been geared towards establishing oligarchies, to put all the power in very few hands, it is a tool of power not a tool of trade.
Hey...is this thing on?
Last edited by LostForm on Jul 9, 2015, 4:51:24 PM
Money is an artificial construct. But it has to be backed by the GDP of a country (and other factors), so it has a real basis for its value.

You can't just print money.
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Last edited by NeroNoah on Jul 9, 2015, 6:15:18 PM
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NeroNoah wrote:
Money is an artificial construct. But it has to be backed by the GDP of a country (and other factors), so it has a real basis for its value.


The gdp figures are based on profits not on useful assets. Money uses itself to to define itself. It's just cleverly hidden.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product#Limitations_and_criticisms
The actual calculations have no shortage of faults even if you ignore its self referencing sleight of hand.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/1368001-u-s-governments-new-way-of-calculating-gdp
This article highlights some more of the underhanded tricks involved with the gdp. As a side note pay careful attention to the total stock market cap divided by the gdp chart for the time around 2001.

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NeroNoah wrote:

You can't just print money.

Huh. The us mint, accomplishing the impossible since 1792.

http://www.mindcontagion.org/fed/createmoney.html
But seriously, money is created by a collusion between the government and a bank.
For years i searched for deep truths. A thousand revelations. At the very edge...the ability to think itself dissolves away.Thinking in human language is the problem. Any separation from 'the whole truth' is incomplete.My incomplete concepts may add to your 'whole truth', accept it or think about it
@Skycore: your criticism about the GDP is absolutely right. Money should be more correlated to the strength of an economy. But that's another can of worms, an interesting one.

Also, a government can print money (of course), but beyond some point, you end with stupid amounts of inflation because you have the same things backing it up. You can't just print money (or go to Mordor, by the way).
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To get back on topic, Tsipras has agreed to do some reforms but in return he wants another 53.5 billion Euros...
GGG banning all political discussion shortly after getting acquired by China is a weird coincidence.
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Xavderion wrote:
To get back on topic, Tsipras has agreed to do some reforms but in return he wants another 53.5 billion Euros...



Tsipras has agreed to almost all reforms proposed by Germany(including severe cuts on wages and tax increases on the already overburdened middle class), but what he actually wants is a good percentage of the debt to be written off, the same thing that happened with Germany where almost 60% of it's debt was written off, after they fucked up the whole Europe(greece included-we had over 400 000 casualties). And while the US supports Tsipras on this, the German goverment says it's out of the quetion. At this point German politicians are acting like Nazis, there is no better way to put this. I am pretty sure that alot of German people know the situation better and will not elect this Nazi bitch another time. Either way we are fucked. There is also a pretty good chance Tsipras and Syriza will quit and will have elections again, what Germany wanted in the first place, in order to have the right wing goverment again whom they always agreed on everything without any hesitation.
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/417287 - Poutsos Flicker Nuke Shadow

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