Ondar's Guile nerf

Way over nerfed I wont take it anymore because of leapers and flickers will one two shot you now.

50-60% evasion is fine vs everything including projectiles.

On a related note -also nerfed into uselessness - I also won't take Eldrish battery as a caster anymore. Lose AA but gain 1000-1500 ES shield as hybrid is just as powerful with 6000-6500 EHP.

This salt is better than the Closed Beta salt

All the Rangers acting like big boys props

All the Rangers having to for the first time actually deal with reflect lend me your tears!!!

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Shppy wrote:

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zorroaster wrote:

I watched stream earlier and there was 30% on the skilltree. I think total crippling of an OP keystone is just stupid. Thats not balance. Phys bow chars will die either to reflect or to leapers/flicker strikers and you can't really do anything.

A) Most Keystones have a give-and-take, quite often with the weight of the downside being greater than that of the upside unless efforts are made by the player and their build to lessen the significance of the downside. Even at 30%, Ondar's upside will still outweigh the downside without any effort at all, which is still pretty good as far as Keystones go, far from crippled.

B) Like I said earlier in this thread: just about every other type of character has to consciously strategize against reflect to some degree, there's no reason ranged evasion characters ever should have been able to pick up Ondar's to passively ignore it. Learn to work around reflect like everyone else, it's really not that difficult.

a) No it wont be "pretty good" melee hit harder and more often making Odnars a negative choice now. Also - many keystone have no drawbacks - conduit - iron will, etc, nothing wrong with Odnars having no drawbacks either. it takes moving along tree to get it so thats a drawback in a way. 30-50% increased chance to evade proj with no downside would be been balanced.

b) I agree I've never had issues with reflect. Usually I out leech it with vaal pack on most builds. Phys bow odnars didnt need even that.

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Aim_Deep wrote:

a) No it wont be "pretty good" melee hit harder and more often making Odnars a negative choice now. Also - many keystone have no drawbacks - conduit - iron will, etc, nothing wrong with Odnars having no drawbacks either. it takes moving along tree to get it so thats a drawback in a way. 30-50% increased chance to evade proj with no downside would be been balanced.

Iron Grip's downside (like MoM) is its location. Conduit doesn't have a downside because frankly it's not a particularly big upside in most cases; for the most part, it's just a glorified notable without any of the numerical stats you'd see attached to most notables.


Ondar's location is not a downside, it's in an area of the tree that already caters nicely to both evasion and ranged attacks, which is the group that the upside is meant to benefit (and also the group that can minimize the new downside of melee vulnerability). If you genuinely believe 30-50% passively increased chance to evade would be balanced without a downside, you've been babysat by an overpowered keystone for far too long to know what 'balance' is.

Hardly ever play ranged characters, but I do play a lot of evasion characters.

I get that this incarnation is not necessarily what's going to go live and I'm kind of hoping it isn't.

I'm with the crowd that feels that Ondar's Guile is going from a must have to a never take keystone.

Neither is a good thing, but I don't believe this is the mid-ground.

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Hunt8722 wrote:

This salt is better than the Closed Beta salt

All the Rangers acting like big boys props

All the Rangers having to for the first time actually deal with reflect lend me your tears!!!

Have you ever actually played a ranger?

I've talked about reflect multiple times in this topic already. With high leech and reasonable evasion investment, you can barely mitigate physical reflect (and still have an issue with double reflect, to the point that it's usually not worth it to play them but you can play carefully if you really want). Ondar's big thing was that it made you virtually immune to *enemy* projectiles. That is why it needed "a nerf"--because being able to stand in the middle of a pack of 20 tentacle miscreations--while having no downside, and getting this ability from a single keystone--was broken. It never trivialized reflect (because player accuracy is much, much higher than monster accuracy), it was just necessary for reflect.

Reflect is now just impossible without Acuity. And even when you have acuity, armour builds are just better than evasion now, for rangers. Following the beta and seeing the new armour scaling has made me increasingly confident in my initial suspicions.

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Dnarris wrote:

Hardly ever play ranged characters, but I do play a lot of evasion characters.

I get that this incarnation is not necessarily what's going to go live and I'm kind of hoping it isn't.

I'm with the crowd that feels that Ondar's Guile is going from a must have to a never take keystone.

Neither is a good thing, but I don't believe this is the mid-ground.

I agree with this, and I said in the very first post that Ondar's needed a nerf.

Yeah the issue is it went from being OP, unbalanced, must-have to something I would never consider getting because of the huge issue it causes with melee attacks. There must be a middle ground, otherwise it will be mostly abandoned.

BTW, reflect was no cakewalk even with Ondar's - my ranger often still has issues with reflect because I don't use Vaal Pact. And we shouldn't be pigeonholed into always using Vaal Pact anyway, especially considering its' inconvenient placement for rangers. Now, however, I worry about reflect even more...

I do have a question about the specific mechanics, however - does 30% increased chance to evade mean adding a flat 30% evade chance on top of whatever we already have (50% -> 80%)? Does it mean multiplying evade chance by 1.3 (50% -> 65%)? Or does it increase evasion rating itself against projectiles? If it's the first option, it might actually be extremely useful for melee characters who use armor or es - nice flat 30% evasion chance with not much downside since they don't evade melee anyway.

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Shppy wrote:

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Aim_Deep wrote:

a) No it wont be "pretty good" melee hit harder and more often making Odnars a negative choice now. Also - many keystone have no drawbacks - conduit - iron will, etc, nothing wrong with Odnars having no drawbacks either. it takes moving along tree to get it so thats a drawback in a way. 30-50% increased chance to evade proj with no downside would be been balanced.

Iron Grip's downside (like MoM) is its location. Conduit doesn't have a downside because frankly it's not a particularly big upside in most cases; for the most part, it's just a glorified notable without any of the numerical stats you'd see attached to most notables.


Ondar's location is not a downside, it's in an area of the tree that already caters nicely to both evasion and ranged attacks, which is the group that the upside is meant to benefit (and also the group that can minimize the new downside of melee vulnerability). If you genuinely believe 30-50% passively increased chance to evade would be balanced without a downside, you've been babysat by an overpowered keystone for far too long to know what 'balance' is.

I genuinely believe 30-50% increase not much more than your base chance to evade.

take a 50% increase tied to your 55% base evasion

55 * (100 + 50 )/100 = 82.5% chance to evade projectiles

was at the 95% cap before nerf

30% increase would only be = 71% chance to evade projectiles

Somewhere in there is fine for me having to run down there from acrobatics as shadow or over as maru or duelly. You only look at it from ranger PoV. Short sighted, It's just as hard to get to for non rangers as MoM.

I love evasion and play it with CI witch even. Thats a long haul.

Here is final tree of my 10K ES 11K EV CI Odnars incinerator


No way Im running down there with this nerf.

Here is tree for my Life based totem & arc shadow who has 16,000 evasion


I wont run down there either.

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demon9675 wrote:

Yeah the issue is it went from being OP, unbalanced, must-have to something I would never consider getting because of the huge issue it causes with melee attacks. There must be a middle ground, otherwise it will be mostly abandoned.

BTW, reflect was no cakewalk even with Ondar's - my ranger often still has issues with reflect because I don't use Vaal Pact. And we shouldn't be pigeonholed into always using Vaal Pact anyway, especially considering its' inconvenient placement for rangers. Now, however, I worry about reflect even more...

I do have a question about the specific mechanics, however - does 30% increased chance to evade mean adding a flat 30% evade chance on top of whatever we already have (50% -> 80%)? Does it mean multiplying evade chance by 1.3 (50% -> 65%)? Or does it increase evasion rating itself against projectiles? If it's the first option, it might actually be extremely useful for melee characters who use armor or es - nice flat 30% evasion chance with not much downside since they don't evade melee anyway.

Exactly that what im talking about middle ground. Not worse than w/o the keystone. GGG does that sometimes though nerf to the ground.

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demon9675 wrote:

Yeah the issue is it went from being OP, unbalanced, must-have to something I would never consider getting because of the huge issue it causes with melee attacks. There must be a middle ground, otherwise it will be mostly abandoned.

BTW, reflect was no cakewalk even with Ondar's - my ranger often still has issues with reflect because I don't use Vaal Pact. And we shouldn't be pigeonholed into always using Vaal Pact anyway, especially considering its' inconvenient placement for rangers. Now, however, I worry about reflect even more...

I do have a question about the specific mechanics, however - does 30% increased chance to evade mean adding a flat 30% evade chance on top of whatever we already have (50% -> 80%)? Does it mean multiplying evade chance by 1.3 (50% -> 65%)? Or does it increase evasion rating itself against projectiles? If it's the first option, it might actually be extremely useful for melee characters who use armor or es - nice flat 30% evasion chance with not much downside since they don't evade melee anyway.

my understanding is that its 30% more chance to evade projectiles, so if you were at 50% chance to evade, youll go to 65% chance to evade projectiles. Currently its 100% more chance technically, I believe, which would cap you at 95% chance from a 50% start.

Way over nerfed imo, way wayyyy over nerfed. Honestly, and the bow users might hate me for this, Im a bow user too so... ya, but they should just take out the ability for it to effect your chance to evade your own projectiles, then balance the node properly for its effects against monsters. I feel like the node is getting destroyed to deal with its reflect safety issues, and the end result is the only people who will take it are bow users to help their reflect issues and the guys who were using it for its effect on mobs will stop using it.

Remove the reflect part, balance the node properly, imo. like 50% more 15% less rather than the current 100% more.