Ondar's Guile nerf

ok so people in global chat are saying ondars is now 30% more against proj with 20% less against melee? anyone confirm this?

Sounds like a little too far imo, like 40% was brutal, but 30%?


say it aint so fam

I watched stream earlier and there was 30% on the skilltree. I think total crippling of an OP keystone is just stupid. Thats not balance. Phys bow chars will die either to reflect or to leapers/flicker strikers and you can't really do anything.

ok if its 30% then thats too much imo, its pretty much worthless to anyone.

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zorroaster wrote:

I watched stream earlier and there was 30% on the skilltree. I think total crippling of an OP keystone is just stupid. Thats not balance. Phys bow chars will die either to reflect or to leapers/flicker strikers and you can't really do anything.

A) Most Keystones have a give-and-take, quite often with the weight of the downside being greater than that of the upside unless efforts are made by the player and their build to lessen the significance of the downside. Even at 30%, Ondar's upside will still outweigh the downside without any effort at all, which is still pretty good as far as Keystones go, far from crippled.

B) Like I said earlier in this thread: just about every other type of character has to consciously strategize against reflect to some degree, there's no reason ranged evasion characters ever should have been able to pick up Ondar's to passively ignore it. Learn to work around reflect like everyone else, it's really not that difficult.

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Shppy wrote:

Learn to work around reflect like everyone else, it's really not that difficult.

"not doing reflect maps" is not working around reflect. Acuity and Vaal Pact with ridiculous leech is now the only way to work around reflect for these builds. As it is, in 1.2 all of my reflect maps will be relegated to my summoner and RF character. No more reflect for crit TS unless I get Acuity.

just lower the physical portion of your damage per hit

use warlords mark.. mana leech, life leech, endurance charges and use vaal pact.. reflect not too big of an issue or use traps to do all the reflect stff<-- this combo makes Atziri for TS a breeze. least with Ondars getting a little downsized, it will mean I need to actually take life nodes :p 3200 life is ample with crazy evasion like we currently have access to.

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Shppy wrote:

Learn to work around reflect like everyone else, it's really not that difficult.

"not doing reflect maps" is not working around reflect. Acuity and Vaal Pact with ridiculous leech is now the only way to work around reflect for these builds. As it is, in 1.2 all of my reflect maps will be relegated to my summoner and RF character. No more reflect for crit TS unless I get Acuity.

"Acuity and Vaal Pact are the only ways to work around reflect"? How braindead. I gave you plenty of examples on how to deal with reflect. If you're too lazy or foolish to bring something like Ice Shot or Lightning Arrow as an alt skill, or set up traps or ranged attack totems, or (god forbid) lower your dps, or just isolate your damage to single targets, or use any of the other perfectly valid counters to reflect, then it's your fault and only your fault.

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Shppy wrote:

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Shppy wrote:

Learn to work around reflect like everyone else, it's really not that difficult.

"not doing reflect maps" is not working around reflect. Acuity and Vaal Pact with ridiculous leech is now the only way to work around reflect for these builds. As it is, in 1.2 all of my reflect maps will be relegated to my summoner and RF character. No more reflect for crit TS unless I get Acuity.

"Only way to work around reflect"? I gave you plenty of examples on how to deal with reflect. If you're too lazy or foolish to bring something like Ice Shot or Lightning Arrow as an alt skill, or set up traps or ranged attack totems, or just isolate your damage to single targets, or use any of the other perfectly valid counters to reflect, then it's your fault and only your fault.


But then again, I'd expect no less from a Tshot user. Prejudice validated.

I'm a Tshot user and I use single-target puncture against reflection, unless it's a reflect map in which case I reroll into something more viable. Don't say Tshot users are bad, say this Tshot user in particular is acting entitled and unwilling to adapt.

Ondar's guile was OP, not expecting a nerf is incredibly stupid. If you can't learn to adapt to the nerf, it's no one's fault but your own. I'm glad my build guide in particular had a single-target secondary skill I can use for situations like this.

Entitled? More like every defense to deal with reflect is constantly being crippled. Acro + shields? Gone. Ondar's Guile? +100% -> +30% with a -20% to evasion against melee?! So we go from +100% to a net of 10%? Might as well remove it. Not to mention all the talk of changing the IC + CWDT setup.

At the end of the day, it seems GGG depends on reflect to frustrate players.

What I would really like someone to explain to me is this:

What was wrong with Diablo 2's corpse nova/corpse explosion/lightning enchanted enemies as a way of punishing players attacking such enemies? When people say "play around reflect", the problem with reflect is that it's designed as a mechanic that is physically impossible to play around. It isn't like the monsters send back some sort of projectile to counterattack you. It's just plain you hitting yourself, with all the tools necessary to avoid that being constantly stripped away.