What is the theory behind making skill point refunds so expensive?

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ZweihundertMorder wrote:

Would LOVE that option so much... even just skipping normal once you have one char at lvl 85 ot something like that would be really great...

Oh my god, seriously, just go play world of warcraft.

Lol, just lol... you have 5 Chars, 3 over 28.

Just go level up some more and come back after that...

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jmomo wrote:

"If I make the wrong decision, I'm screwed forever."

So you thought as long as you don't chose you, anything is possible? Nemo? Is that you?

Theory ? To rekt ya ass !

I think the concept is fail, because its contradictory gamedesign.

1, PoE allows you to play HUNDRETS of fundamentally different builds
2, sh its on your head, if you want to make a new character
3, its not very fun to play from 1-60 (ok, maybe we can argue here, actually cruel onwards can be fun)

to 2:

-catching up to a lv ~85 char takes very long (1-60 is no big problem though)
-skillgem leveling and management is a pain, when having multiple alts
-strong scaling of stats (means: early game feels incredible slow) Can be fixed with uniques to some extend, but still the pace of the game in normal is not enjoyable(at least for me)


I understand that high level should be some kind of achievement, but having seen a lot of different games an idea like this would fit PoE a lot better imo:

-currency sink to create XP maps (like the one from zana, or is such a feature already in the game?)
-highly reduced xp needed for lv 100 (with moderate use of XP maps and high gameknowledge it should be achieveable in something like 60-100h)
-if you have a lv 100 character, you can "retire" him. (maybe retiring makes all skillpoints not resetable) Maybe there could a "legacy league" for retired chars
-for every character you retired, all other characters you have on your account get +5% XP and maybe some other SMALL bonus (like +3% quantity)


But back to your question:
I dont understand what the theory behind making refund points so expensive. Personally I never reset lot of skillpoints and rather start a new char. Its still the lesser EVIL compared to spend so much currency.

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jmomo wrote:

I like the idea of the Orbs of Regret. I just wish they were not so rare.

You can farm them or trade for them.

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ExiledRenor wrote:

I understand that high level should be some kind of achievement, but having seen a lot of different games an idea like this would fit PoE a lot better imo:

-currency sink to create XP maps (like the one from zana, or is such a feature already in the game?)
-highly reduced xp needed for lv 100 (with moderate use of XP maps and high gameknowledge it should be achieveable in something like 60-100h)
-if you have a lv 100 character, you can "retire" him. (maybe retiring makes all skillpoints not resetable) Maybe there could a "legacy league" for retired chars
-for every character you retired, all other characters you have on your account get +5% XP and maybe some other SMALL bonus (like +3% quantity)

No, thanks.

If the game was like this, I would have uninstalled it a year ago.

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pneuma wrote:

The game is balanced around having limited respecs. If you can modify your build according to every challenge that you come across, the game is much less difficult. Similarly, some things are much stronger in the late game and much weaker in the early game. If you can get the upside without the downside, the game is much less difficult.

If people want to play an easier version of the game, that's fine, but that's not GGG's target audience. They would prefer that people play the game as intended, and that means making difficult and exclusionary decisions throughout playtime and engaging their brains.

I agree, but on the other hand consider this- 99,9% posts on forums are people who are begging for the game to be easier. GGG buffs unique drops by something like 100000000%, and they still complain drops are bad because Shavronnes didnt drop today. They complain level 100 should be achievable within 2 days of playing. They choose to play a grind game, but literally don't want to grind at all. They want everything to be handed to them on a silver platter and when doesn't happen, they'll say the game is bad and unrewarding. They say they want a challenging game, but as soon as something kills them, it's "GGG, please nerf Devourers!!".

All I can say, GGG has already made too many concessions to players like these and any more, well, it would flat out kill the game for players who do actually want to grind and want the challenge.

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toyotatundra wrote:

I agree, but on the other hand consider this- 99,9% posts on forums are people who are begging for the game to be easier. GGG buffs unique drops by something like 100000000%, and they still complain drops are bad because Shavronnes didnt drop today. They complain level 100 should be achievable within 2 days of playing. They choose to play a grind game, but literally don't want to grind at all. They want everything to be handed to them on a silver platter and when doesn't happen, they'll say the game is bad and unrewarding. They say they want a challenging game, but as soon as something kills them, it's "GGG, please nerf Devourers!!".

All I can say, GGG has already made too many concessions to players like these and any more, well, it would flat out kill the game for players who do actually want to grind and want the challenge.

I feel like I've had a long enough tenure on these forums to state unequivocally that the complaints about game difficulty (read: "game is too hard") have decreased heavily over time. Lots and lots of people have asked for easier gameplay, and GGG has noticeably turned away from their original design.

As an extended and relevant example, I was one of the few people arguing against adding respecs in the first place when it was brought up for consideration. To me, it cheapens the game experience and turns the game away from "mortal/ephemeral" characters to "immortal/adaptive" characters.

The former, my argument, is the backbone of roguelikes and the ARPGs which descend in lineage from them. It feels important to have mortal characters that get old and die in a world where everything is out to kill you. It's nice to look at your tree and see the old memories from when you had to put points into dexterity to wear some gear to survive, or when you were having so much fun with a great 2h mace that dropped that you decided to spec into 2h maces until the end. It mirrors life on fast-forward -- a new life, growing quickly, learning, evolving, getting lucky at times and unlucky at others, then ultimately coming to its end to start the cycle all over again.

The latter is the concoction of MMOs, which want people to have a "permanent name" in the game world so that everlasting accolades can be attached to them. Deleting a character in an MMO is seen as an unforgivable sin. MMO characters never die -- they just keep getting reworked and refreshed and adapt to the world as it changes around them, because "your character" is an avatar of you. Time doesn't move at fast-forward for you, thus it shouldn't for the character either. The concept of "progress" becomes the only important thing; any step backwards is unacceptable.

At the end of 2011, 0.9.5 rolled in.
They finally added respecs and it was 8 respec points ever, and only from quest rewards.
Then they added Orbs of Regret.
Then they added Scours->Regrets from Yeena.
Then they upped the respecs from quests to 16.
Then they upped the respecs from quests to 18.
Then they added a way to change which bandit you helped.

I hope they'll shit or get off the pot soon. Either characters (and leagues) are meant to be die or they are not. The current solution is somewhere in between which only manages to annoy both camps.

so your choices matter.

if you could at frivolously change specs like in D3, where no choice matters... then why would you ever care about a spec?
all you would do, is change to whatever spec was the flavor of the week, and everyone would play the same build, and same class - just like in D3, where every demon hunter plays the marauder set, every wizard is a firebird wizard, every monk is sunwuko...

when changing your spec means a huge investment in regret orbs - or a few days releveling, you will eventually rethink how and why you gear the way you do, or why you chose to spec the way you do.

the choices you make in this game matters.
in a sense, that almost makes the character mean more to you.

if you took that away, then the game would be as shallow as D3... where nothing you do matters, you play a demon hunter? heres your 6 piece marauders set...

here, gear pushs you to try new things, and having hard choices means your successes and failures have more weight to them, they are more personal.

Thanks for the replies. Some thoughtful ideas in there between the juvenile attention-seeking blithering. =)