Curse Immunity.

"

Natharias wrote:

Edit: When and if you post something new I'll respond to you.

Please don't.

1. The good thing about suggestions is that GGG is rumoured to read them all.
2. The bad thing is that players sometimes take it upon themselves to have long arguments about why a suggestion is bad.

If 1. is true, then 2. is unnecessary because GGG are making their own minds up with better data than we have available in any case.

Counters never straight up make a build useless of course, except... wait, immunity to burning. Great. Now what's my fire trapper going to do with atziri?

Natharias, I quoted you with my name by mistake.
It's part of the reason I have 2 posts in a row.
I accidentally quoted myself instead of adding to my original post, and then deleted the wrong quote header (yours).

You've shown that you really don't care much about build identity or flavor and just go for a "whatever works jack-of-all-trades" approach when building a character.

The difference between our arguments is that mine doesn't prevent you from playing your way, but yours prevents everyone from playing any way that isn't yours.

I'm a Curse build that does not use curses because of Immunity.

What you want Immunities to do can be done MUCH better in a different way.
Immunity to Curse forces a Curse build to not play its build at all. I'm using everything EXCEPT what my build is all about.

If instead there were mobs that gained - for example - Movement Speed & Attack Speed per Curse, it would force me to:
a) measure how many curses I can place on them without them overwhelming me
b) force me to be more mobile or focus on slowing them down to avoid getting overwhelmed

Your suggestions, on the other hand - namely "Conversion Trap says hi!" - just throw everything your build is all about out the window.

There is NO working around "wasting X passives".
I spent them for my build.
Conversion Trap doesn't add to nor give back the value of those passives.
Getting Conversion Trap doesn't change the fact that I'm not playing my build because of Immunity.

The answer is making you use your build cleverly - not playing something else.

Designing the game around expecting everyone to have a couple staple Skill Gems due to gimmicky mechanics that exist just to "screw your build" is simply a bad philosophy.

There are MANY great suggestions on how to promote using multiple skills per build, and none of them includes Immunities.

Curses are in most cases used as a secondary spell to help you out.

I can't see how anyone can say some mobs got immunity to force out the "A-Move".
When I see a mob with curse immunity I don't play any differently. I just don't curse, that is all.

It makes little to no sense to me why such an immunity mechanic is necessary. It does not change gameplay in any way. To me at least.

All it does is slow down gameplay. I dislike such mechanic's implemented to slow player's down.

Pointless mechanics that does not make the game any harder, but slowing down progression is not something most players find appealing in a "hack 'n' slash" game where you gear up to clear more efficiently.

P-Link is another example of slowing players down. Took my flame totems 2-3 minutes to kill a pack of 20 apes once, I was in no danger... Was just standing there watching the link bounce around while the monkeys ran around all over the room. Don't get me started on snakes, they always run away. Not a lot of fun encountering this.

I'm all for longer and challenging fights like Voidspawn of Abaxoth etc, but mechanics that is in place to only slow players down is something I hope to not see much of in the future.

Mechanics that is ok to have in place to slow players down is curses, zombie tar, freeze etc. Those are mechanics you must play around and can get you in a sticky situations, but that is up to you as a player to avoid.

Curse immunity you can not avoid. P-link you can not avoid (if you want those map drops) list goes on.

Bottom line is; If there are mechanics that are meant to slow players down, there should always be a way to build around it. Like always this will come at the cost of giving up a gem slot or gear stats. Let the player at the very least choose to avoid what they find the most frustrating. I don't think it is a very good idea to force such mechanics on players.

Curse immunity is something I encounter far too often to even consider running 2 curses in my builds. It would only be if I ever ran as a support character with auras and curses, and even then it wouldn't be much fun running into mobs that make you useless in that encounter.

I guess I just don't get it.

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davidnn5 wrote:

"

Natharias wrote:

Edit: When and if you post something new I'll respond to you.

Please don't.

1. The good thing about suggestions is that GGG is rumoured to read them all.
2. The bad thing is that players sometimes take it upon themselves to have long arguments about why a suggestion is bad.

If 1. is true, then 2. is unnecessary because GGG are making their own minds up with better data than we have available in any case.

Counters never straight up make a build useless of course, except... wait, immunity to burning. Great. Now what's my fire trapper going to do with atziri?

How many people is GGG? Ten? Twenty? Fifty?

How many people are we? A hundred? A thousand?

We can give input GGG may not think about. There have been numerous occasions that someone from GGG has expressly stated that they liked what someone posted. One example is my identification of how Righteous Fire and Arctic Armor are opposites. If I recall correctly, it was Mark that commented on it.

Also, Atziri cannot be "ignited". It doesn't mean she can't burn.

http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Atziri

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Nurvus wrote:

You've shown that you really don't care much about build identity or flavor and just go for a "whatever works jack-of-all-trades" approach when building a character.

No. I prefer anything that is survivable, and low-life isn't even remotely survivable without Solaris Lorica or Shav's chest piece. Once it has one of those, it's quite powerful and arguably immortal.

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Nurvus wrote:

The difference between our arguments is that mine doesn't prevent you from playing your way, but yours prevents everyone from playing any way that isn't yours.

No. The difference is that you throw your build in the trash because one monster renders the core of your build useless, and only against itself.

I have no problem switching to a minor setup, or even one gem, to overcome a single enemy.

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Nurvus wrote:

Your suggestions, on the other hand - namely "Conversion Trap says hi!" - just throw everything your build is all about out the window.

No, it forces you to not "a-move".

If you can come up with a "good" way to stop a-moving, then I'm all for it. But let's look at one example:

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Nurvus wrote:

If instead there were mobs that gained - for example - Movement Speed & Attack Speed per Curse, it would force me to:
a) measure how many curses I can place on them without them overwhelming me
b) force me to be more mobile or focus on slowing them down to avoid getting overwhelmed

Close to good, but it has one core problem. If a monster becomes stronger while cursed, how strong should it become and how should each curse affect it?

If it becomes faster and attacks faster, casts faster, and so on, how would temporal chains affect it? Should temporal chains actually become beneficial for it? What about vulnerability? Would it get increased physical damage?

In the case it gains from a curse instead, it stops your build from wanting to cast curses just the same as curse immunity. Ever think of that? Why make a monster stronger by cursing it? You'd just be killing yourself.

Perhaps now you'll understand what you're suggesting.

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Nurvus wrote:

There is NO working around "wasting X passives".
I spent them for my build.
Conversion Trap doesn't add to nor give back the value of those passives.

Conversion Trap is not meant to. It's meant to be used as a temporary fix against things your build isn't strong against.

"

Nurvus wrote:

Designing the game around expecting everyone to have a couple staple Skill Gems due to gimmicky mechanics that exist just to "screw your build" is simply a bad philosophy.

No, it's forcing players to be ready for something that counters their build or giving them a reason to participate in groups.

Look at Diablo II. There were a few "staple" things that everyone did. Barbs always got Berserk because it only took one point to be really good and dealt with just about everything. Assassins had one charge up skill that did different damage based on how many charges you had. Amazons had different damage type javelin/bow skills. Paladins had Vengeance (or whatever) that added fire/cold/lightning damage to an attack. It didn't ruin anything.

Forcing players to adapt is not bad, even if it forces them into something they didn't build for. You shouldn't be able to build around one thing and beat the entire game.

"

P-Link is another example of slowing players down. Took my flame totems 2-3 minutes to kill a pack of 20 apes once, I was in no danger... Was just standing there watching the link bounce around while the monkeys ran around all over the room. Don't get me started on snakes, they always run away. Not a lot of fun encountering this.

That's exactly the point. Enemies run to slow down clear speed, but isn't a problem for builds that have large AOE or use spells like Arc.

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Curse immunity is something I encounter far too often to even consider running 2 curses in my builds. It would only be if I ever ran as a support character with auras and curses, and even then it wouldn't be much fun running into mobs that make you useless in that encounter.

Mjolner, CoC, and other high DPS builds don't need curses at all against anything. Most high end builds actually avoid curses since they just slow down clear speeds.

This is one reason I just don't see the point of investing into more than two curses, as it just slows down clear speed.

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Natharias wrote:

Enemies run to slow down clear speed, but isn't a problem for builds that have large AOE or use spells like Arc.

Mjolner, CoC, and other high DPS builds don't need curses at all against anything. Most high end builds actually avoid curses since they just slow down clear speeds.

This is one reason I just don't see the point of investing into more than two curses, as it just slows down clear speed.

Even for high dps AoE build's P-Link slows down the speed, might not be as annoying, but slows you down.

I don't think you can say it's fine that mobs have curse immunity because some builds don't run curses. I think most builds do use curses, as the builds you mentioned is not really something the average player can afford.

For example an elemental build meets a rare with very high resist. A simple curse lets you kill it twice as fast. With immunity all it does is slow you down. There is literally no other point to it than slowing you down, and that has been my point all along.

If there is a mechanic to slow players down, there should be ways to counter it.

You don't seem to grasp the concept of that idea.

Wouldn't you agree instead of such mechanics there could be other mods to make you play differently? Slowing you down for the sake of slowing you down is not creative in any way, and I'm sure most players feel the same way.

There are other mechanics in place to slow you down, but you can work around it with gems.
Take an elemental build for example. Without a resist penetration gem, mobs with resist to an element would be there only for the sake of slowing you down. Now you say that is fine, just use a different skill.

Well I don't think it's ok. In fact GGG didn't think that was fine either because we have such gems. All I wonder is, why on earth must there be complete immunity to curses, which is a secondary spell. Does it make the game harder? Not really. All it does is making me sigh, spam my one button instead of two, walk to the next pack. There is no point to having this mod.

That is all I have to say about the matter. I'm sure GGG have read this thread already.

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Natharias wrote:

Enemies run to slow down clear speed, but isn't a problem for builds that have large AOE or use spells like Arc.

Mjolner, CoC, and other high DPS builds don't need curses at all against anything. Most high end builds actually avoid curses since they just slow down clear speeds.

This is one reason I just don't see the point of investing into more than two curses, as it just slows down clear speed.

The fact some builds can clear everything without Curses is extra proof that penalizing Curses is idiotic.

And you continue to hyperbole in your interpretation of my statements.


When I said you can still play your build if immunity is replaced by any of the alternatives I provided, I didn't mean you are going to play exactly the same. You'll just not IGNORE the WHOLE point of your build to use something else.
It gives off the feeling you're trolling, because you seem to be discussing semanthics rather than actually discussing the issue.

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Natharias wrote:

Close to good, but it has one core problem. If a monster becomes stronger while cursed, how strong should it become and how should each curse affect it?

If it becomes faster and attacks faster, casts faster, and so on, how would temporal chains affect it? Should temporal chains actually become beneficial for it? What about vulnerability? Would it get increased physical damage?

In the case it gains from a curse instead, it stops your build from wanting to cast curses just the same as curse immunity. Ever think of that? Why make a monster stronger by cursing it? You'd just be killing yourself.

Perhaps now you'll understand what you're suggesting.

You're proposing ilogical scenarios and forgetting your own logic...
The point here is not using the same all the time, yes?

If a mob gets faster by placing Curses on him, then perhaps Temporal Chains isn't the ideal Curse to use?
Perhaps you can use Blind?
But at least you can use ONE curse! Or two!
You're not using ZERO curses on your Curse build.

The fact you try to dismiss all value to my suggestion with your distorted example makes me wonder if you're not really trolling.

Can you answer this without distorting my words?
What good does Curse Immunity bring that a properly tuned "boost to attack/cast/movement speed per Curse" doesn't?

Is there anything Curse Immunity does better than any other sollution?
Because Curse Immunity only seems to me a "oh %"$" this I don't know what else to do".

And the fact Curses aren't exactly mandatory only exacerbates my point.

POE has different systems that make any 1 thing limited.

Armor is great for physical reduction, but useless against elemental or chaos. Evasion is useless against spells. Crazy DPS is dangerous against reflect.

And some maps or rares can be curse immune.

I think this is perfectly fine. Does it really matter if the curse effect is 100% less, or 90% less? That being said, I'm not against swapping this, I'm just saying it isn't necessarily a need in my book. These few things should still have nearly no curse effect to the point where you just wouldn't bother, so the difference should be pretty slim either way.

"

POE has different systems that make any 1 thing limited.

Armor is great for physical reduction, but useless against elemental or chaos. Evasion is useless against spells. Crazy DPS is dangerous against reflect.

And some maps or rares can be curse immune.

I think this is perfectly fine. Does it really matter if the curse effect is 100% less, or 90% less? That being said, I'm not against swapping this, I'm just saying it isn't necessarily a need in my book. These few things should still have nearly no curse effect to the point where you just wouldn't bother, so the difference should be pretty slim either way.

Who said anything about 90% less?

What I had in mind was a master mod to remove curse immune, or a unique with the same effect, or a curse penetration gem similar to resist penetration gems.

With such a gem, curse immune monsters would take the same effect of what a map boss would, and at that point it would, in my opinion, be wort to use.

What I would like to see is to just remove the affix from monsters, with the exception of curse immune mods on maps. At the very least make them curse resistant with 50% reduced effect, slightly more effective than against a boss.

The Curse Immunity should just be gone.
There is no point adding gem/unique/passive to deal with something that shouldn't exist in the first place.

A curse immune is a no brainer.
It's just a brick wall against curse-focused builds, and a beneficial mod to everyone else.

A proper challenge would be adding various anti-curse mods:
- Cursed Berserker -> More attack/movement speed per curse on it.
- Cursed Juggernaut -> More damage and area of effect radius per curse on it.
- Cursed Guardian -> Less damage taken per Curse on it.
- Curse Eater -> Gains X% health regen per second per Curse.

This way you can use Curses but must deal with the consequences.