Dear GGG, are you balancing around the ladder or the content?

In this patch (1.3.0) they are MAINLY balancing around PvP which makes no sense.
Otherwhise their way of changing the tree would absolutly make no sense at all.
Still idiotic due the fact that only the minority is playing PvP.

But be honest, no one EVER expects good and intelligent balancing from GGG.
The balancing is absolutly random.
Their Balancingteam probably enters their room in the morning and one closes his eyes, points at the screen and whatever he hits gets nerfed.

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CanHasPants wrote:

I read your post all the way to the end, and coincidentally thought it made perfect sense. Until I read the tl;dr XD I didn't get a hint of "fuck ranged" out of that whole post, but I did get a whole lot about the "development meta" as opposed to the game meta. Some good points to be made there ^-^

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eragon1111 wrote:

PoE cant be competitive game when trading is involved.

Just to nit pick, trading is an inherently competitive act. This is important to note, because your post is incredibly vague. "It is a problem because it it a problem" sort of stuff.

Hmm i thought it was an apparent underlying thing, since i am discussing block(melee) vs ranged speed clearing etc when it comes to ladder balance.

In a ladder balance light, block can remain OP, since nobody with a block build is going to threaten the ladder positions, it sacrifices xp/hour and farm/hour for safety sort of speak.(and fun :p)

In a content light however, it needs to be nerfed to the ground since it trivializes a lot of available content with ease.

The problem is, ranged does the same exact thing, just by virtue of being ranged, so i am left wondering why nerf block and keep ranged as it is?

Maybe it didn't come out clearly enough in my initial post, sorry if so.

Peace,

-Boem-

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Boem wrote:

The problem is, ranged does the same exact thing, just by virtue of being ranged, so i am left wondering why nerf block and keep ranged as it is?

Maybe it didn't come out clearly enough in my initial post, sorry if so.

Peace,

-Boem-

Nop not like it is, now they have clones gems to be even more tanky/avoid to get hit.
Clone gem+tunt totem... XD

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lolozori wrote:

"

Boem wrote:

The problem is, ranged does the same exact thing, just by virtue of being ranged, so i am left wondering why nerf block and keep ranged as it is?

Maybe it didn't come out clearly enough in my initial post, sorry if so.

Peace,

-Boem-

Nop not like it is, now they have clones gems to be even more tanky/avoid to get hit.
Clone gem+tunt totem... XD

Very good points.

Having 75/75 Block does not even come close to the same level of damage avoidance any ranged character can enjoy.

Tangent:
Are Rumi's OP? Anyone can simply drop one onto their belt. Flask effect scales with clear speed ;)

the sad thing is that ranged is so much better ( specifically nado puncture crit . my god the node efficiency is stupid on that build) that as long as you take acrobatics and have some evasion and ondars you dont need potions, hell my level 78 clear build for non reflect maps had 3 qs flasks because i was too lazy to roll surgeons + adren and i was perfectly fine.

^the node efficiency on bow crit builds is indeed beyond ridicules.

I think i was lvl 85 with that build (already had like +20 move speed in the tree) when i began to just put random fluff points like evasion +ms.

Ondars guile + acrobatics coupled with a jade flask make you practically immune to reflect. (with 70%acc in the tree and 320 base dex btw)

And if you have a problem with it, drop one herald and put on grace in reflect maps and go "trolololol" mode.

It's not like you will be lacking damage if you drop a single herald.

Peace,

-Boem-

They give a fuck about balance if you want balance go play d3

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Boem wrote:

Spoiler

"

CanHasPants wrote:

I read your post all the way to the end, and coincidentally thought it made perfect sense. Until I read the tl;dr XD I didn't get a hint of "fuck ranged" out of that whole post, but I did get a whole lot about the "development meta" as opposed to the game meta. Some good points to be made there ^-^

"

eragon1111 wrote:

PoE cant be competitive game when trading is involved.

Just to nit pick, trading is an inherently competitive act. This is important to note, because your post is incredibly vague. "It is a problem because it it a problem" sort of stuff.

Hmm i thought it was an apparent underlying thing, since i am discussing block(melee) vs ranged speed clearing etc when it comes to ladder balance.

In a ladder balance light, block can remain OP, since nobody with a block build is going to threaten the ladder positions, it sacrifices xp/hour and farm/hour for safety sort of speak.(and fun :p)

In a content light however, it needs to be nerfed to the ground since it trivializes a lot of available content with ease.

The problem is, ranged does the same exact thing, just by virtue of being ranged, so i am left wondering why nerf block and keep ranged as it is?

Maybe it didn't come out clearly enough in my initial post, sorry if so.

Peace,

-Boem-

Melee vs Ranged just seemed more of an example or supportive argument for the thesis, rather than the leading thesis itself; that, it seemed, was very clearly defined as something much broader than build-type disparities.

"How content and competition can lead to different kinds of balance, and how this apparent dichotomy confuses things in the end."

That, I found rather inspiring ^-^

Regarding the supposed topic ;) At this point I wouldn't want to see ranged nerfed for the sake of melee.
Instead, I think the problem is that ranged is just inherently "meatier" than melee; the core mechanics of any time-based point and click game would seem to favor ranged as it creates an environment where ranged wins in far fewer clicks. Melee's failing is not one of having better or worse numbers, but of not having the mechanics to prop it up like ranged does.

A guild mate had a really good idea (dunno if he's shared it on these forums yet or not) where, to paraphrase, the game would determine if you were "at range," "in close quarters," "in melee" or etc.. This would lay the ground work, mechanically, for all different kinds of expansion to melee vs ranged..

But as I mentioned in the other thread (DW block) I'm no longer a fan of pure vertical scaling, because I think we've seen enough of that to know it doesn't really work.. it just makes numbers bigger or smaller, and that just creates more absolutes, when the solution (imo) is to create more questions.

most games would just make ranged do less damage , or give melee blatantly superior skills

unfortunately because crit scales damage so high , high dps, low dps .... none of that matters once you get passed 30k potential aoe dps (something extremely easy to do with both crit ranged and crit melee)

thus with the whole damage factor entirely irrelevant (they both do too much to matter) it goes down to what reaches targets faster.

and ranged does that better.


Part of me thinks that so long as damage is no longer a factor of note (since it is too easy to get to the point where you oneshot trashmobs) , these builds will never be equal.
just like how a summoner build with 200k potential dps clears half as fast as a 15k nado shot build.


dps only matters in groups , but even then range basically gets a free 100% dps boost just because it hit things better. (put another way non ranged gets a nice 50% damage penalty)

I honestly don't think this patch was meant to totally address pve melee vs ranged issues as some seem to think it would. I feel it was more aimed at the pvp aspects then pve in general and to me that's fine.

I see the changes they made as a good thing for melee in general.

Dps was increased by a good amount while defenses was decreased slightly.
This should actually make it easier for melee to get more life / extra goodies.

To me the real issue for melee pve has not really been addressed and that is movement speed.
Going with a melee build generally means to me that I am slower moving because of armor penalty.
One of the reason I liked that they made the ignores movement penalty from armor node easy to get now.