The sad state that is Armor

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Peterlerock wrote:

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Natharias wrote:

Boss deals a 8k crit that has checked against all damage avoidance. Each build has 7k combined hit points.

Who in this game crits for 8k (non elemental)?
Or... who in this game crits for 8k in a non "long ass animation telegraphed attack that is super easily avoided"?

Long story short: your example stinks.

Make it a 4k hit, and all mitigation types can survive, including armor builds.

One of two cases:

1. 0/10 troll. Either shut up or at least try not to twist the conversation.

2. The example went way over your head and I'm not in the mood to explain it to you. Keep reading it until you get it.

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Exactly. Both Armor and Evasion users are dead. So I'm happy.

Perhaps the 8k hit wasn't very reasonable if it's going to also kill an Evasion user in a single shot. Armor can't be so powerful that this is too hard to balance for evasion...

Did you miss the point too? I'm talking about an "actual" hit. Not a generic hit. The attack has "hit", so damage is dealt.

This thread is talking about mitigation, yes? Evasion basically translates to MoM since evasion doesn't mitigate except for avoiding damage. MoM allows for more mitigation-like avoidance.

Guys, you people are getting lost in examples and forgetting a few very important things:

1 - Pure Evasion+Dodge users are nearly immune to critical hits because the enemy has nearly no chance to crit-confirm.
And this means Evasion already avoids some of the "omg" surprises better than Armour, who is supposed to be the "steady" defense.
Ironically, this means Evasion is currently SAFER than Armour. Who would've guessed?
Plus, Evasion+Dodge works (at least partially) vs all types of damage.

2 - Armour completely melts against high raw crits. And I mean pure armour users - who not only have nearly 0 chance to avoid being crit, they also have nearly 0 chance to avoid being hit.
Meaning if 3 big crits are coming, you will take them straight up the ass without even a kiss goodbye.
Plus, Armour is useless against non-physical damage.

3 - Energy Shield is a completely different gameplay from the other 2 defenses, as it's meant for those who do NOT want to stay in harm's way.
You have a recharge delay for that very reason - you're meant to WANT to kite.
With that in mind, it provides the best option for "short term" soaks, in the form of a very large effective health (life+energy shield+whatever mitigation/avoidance).

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Nurvus wrote:

Guys, you people are getting lost in examples and forgetting a few very important things:

1 - Pure Evasion+Dodge users are nearly immune to critical hits because the enemy has nearly no chance to crit-confirm.
And this means Evasion already avoids some of the "omg" surprises better than Armour, who is supposed to be the "steady" defense.
Ironically, this means Evasion is currently SAFER than Armour. Who would've guessed?
Plus, Evasion+Dodge works (at least partially) vs all types of damage.

2 - Armour completely melts against high raw crits. And I mean pure armour users - who not only have nearly 0 chance to avoid being crit, they also have nearly 0 chance to avoid being hit.
Meaning if 3 big crits are coming, you will take them straight up the ass without even a kiss goodbye.
Plus, Armour is useless against non-physical damage.

3 - Energy Shield is a completely different gameplay from the other 2 defenses, as it's meant for those who do NOT want to stay in harm's way.
You have a recharge delay for that very reason - you're meant to WANT to kite.
With that in mind, it provides the best option for "short term" soaks, in the form of a very large effective health (life+energy shield+whatever mitigation/avoidance).

1. It is important to change it from "evasion/dodge works on all types of damage" to "avoidance and hit points work on all types of damage while armor only works against physical damage, regardless of the source". ES builds are more likely to survive that big hit due to more hit points.

I've been considering making a hybrid life/ES build for this very reason. Just get max block, then get as much life and ES as I can while I use Incinerate for sufficient damage. Most survivable thing ever. Only problem is perfect gear will cost a ton.

Last time I looked on the...

...rotting in my softcore stash tab, it had the same number in armor and evasion.

If its mechanic is so super-powerful, why would an armor user not wear it, too?

In the examples, it's always treated like an Evasion item, but it has the same drawback (not so high defenses, negative resist) for both defensive approaches.

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"Armor is useless against big crits"
Yeah, and that's "working as intended". That's why GGG is applying this formula.
They want it to be useless against very hard hits.
No matter how thick your armor, if you get hit by a demolition ball, you're going to be smashed.

"Armor is useless against non physical"
Again, what a surprise.

Both of this has never been different, and people were still happily takeing Iron Reflexes without any complaints.
Instead they said "Evasion is useless because of the inevitable oneshot" or "because of physical spells".

Nothing has changed, and all of a sudden, Armor is "in a sad state"?

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Peterlerock wrote:

Last time I looked on the...

...rotting in my softcore stash tab, it had the same number in armor and evasion.

If its mechanic is so super-powerful, why would an armor user not wear it, too?

In the examples, it's always treated like an Evasion item, but it has the same drawback (not so high defenses, negative resist) for both defensive approaches.

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"Armor is useless against big crits"
Yeah, and that's "working as intended". That's why GGG is applying this formula.
They want it to be useless against very hard hits.
No matter how thick your armor, if you get hit by a demolition ball, you're going to be smashed.

"Armor is useless against non physical"
Again, what a surprise.

Both of this has never been different, and people were still happily takeing Iron Reflexes without any complaints.
Instead they said "Evasion is useless because of the inevitable oneshot" or "because of physical spells".

Nothing has changed, and all of a sudden, Armor is "in a sad state"?

Like, are you blind or have you just chosen to ignore the acrobatics cluster + ondar's on the other side of the tree?

Where is the armor equivalent?

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Peterlerock wrote:

Last time I looked on the...

If its mechanic is so super-powerful, why would an armor user not wear it, too?

Because that leaves no place for rare armour chests. And no place for other rare gear pieces with high armour on it.

This thread, btw, isnt about ITEMS. It's about general state of armour in the game. Which, in my and OP opinion, is REALLY bad.

Pure armour builds already have fancy keystones at their disposal (eva -> armour conversion and stun immune), so keystones arent the problem there.

But the whole armour mechanics IS!
Armour protects ONLY from physical, becomes weaker when bigger hits come into play and require high values to be effective, those 3 components together define armour being awfully weak.

We could give armour ability to absorb ANY damage. Perhaps, it's a nice idea for some unique item. It would be fancy to have such an item in game, but it wont fix armour's problems, as elemental damage can hit very hard too.

We could give armour percentage reduction, irrelevant to damage incoming (that's how evasion works). However, this cahnge will make armour quite similar to evasion, and to work properly, it requires to implement another stat (let's call it "penetration"), which, akin to accuracy, will determine, how well damage will bypass armour.

And at last, we could just change the damage absorbtion formula for armour, to make it at least as good against hard hits, as it is against weak ones. I cant offer a correct formula ATM, as it requires a lot of work to invest the one that will be balanced. But with right formula, armour can actually be useful.

Oh, and BTW, as long as Immortal Call exists in its current state, armour will always be weak (as nothing can beat 100% immunity). Maybe, some changes to Immortal Call are needed, too?

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Eep wrote:

Like, are you blind or have you just chosen to ignore the acrobatics cluster + ondar's on the other side of the tree?

Where is the armor equivalent?

No, I'm not blind, totally aware of those pretty keystones.
But armor has two nice keystones, too.
You can argue their strength compared to acrobatics, but there sort of is an equivalent.

Maybe GGG should introduce "real stuns" (like 5 seconds of doing nothing, not 2 milliseconds interrupts), then all of a sudden Unwavering Stance is the greatest thing there is.

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

Because that leaves no place for rare armour chests. And no place for other rare gear pieces with high armour on it.

Same goes for Evasion users, they also take it over a 2k Evasion chestpiece and would probably also love to use both.

If this 30-40% damage reduction is so extremly powerful, and better than 20k armor with a rare chest, IR, grace and determination, then for god's sake: wear Lightning coil as an armor user.

It's always argued that Evasion users have Block, Acrobatics, Evasion and LC. At least half of that stuff is accessible for Armor users, too.
You could even use Acrobatics on Armor builds. Stack your armor really high, use two Granite flasks of iron skin, the two auras, and you'll still have a pretty comfortable physical mitigation. If you think the mechanic is so super powerful, then build around it.

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

We could give armour percentage reduction, irrelevant to damage incoming (that's how evasion works). However, this cahnge will make armour quite similar to evasion, and to work properly, it requires to implement another stat (let's call it "penetration"), which, akin to accuracy, will determine, how well damage will bypass armour.

...this "penetration" will again lead to...

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

becomes weaker when bigger hits come into play

I run a dual defense using daresso's defiance, 8000 armor 12000 evasion (with ondars guile) and grace and determination are only level 16. It works really well i also have lmp molten strike at more than 5 attacks a second with 50+ life gain on hit (not even 5 link i might add). With iron reflexes i achieve 28000 armor and up to 52000 with a granite.

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Zigma999 wrote:

With iron reflexes i achieve 28000 armor and up to 52000 with a granite.

With those numbers, you really could take Acrobatics and still be pretty invincible against all normal attacks. ;)

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Peterlerock wrote:

Last time I looked on the...

...rotting in my softcore stash tab, it had the same number in armor and evasion.

If its mechanic is so super-powerful, why would an armor user not wear it, too?

In the examples, it's always treated like an Evasion item, but it has the same drawback (not so high defenses, negative resist) for both defensive approaches.

That's because it doesn't offer armor equal to a really good or perfect rare chest, nor the mods that rare chest can give. Well, besides life.

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"Armor is useless against big crits"
Yeah, and that's "working as intended". That's why GGG is applying this formula.
They want it to be useless against very hard hits.
No matter how thick your armor, if you get hit by a demolition ball, you're going to be smashed.

Armor shouldn't be useless against big crits. That's the argument.

If GGG really intended for armor to be useless against big hits, then armor has no place in this game. It'll never be worthwhile compared to any other defense.

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"Armor is useless against non physical"
Again, what a surprise.

Both of this has never been different, and people were still happily takeing Iron Reflexes without any complaints.
Instead they said "Evasion is useless because of the inevitable oneshot" or "because of physical spells".

Nothing has changed, and all of a sudden, Armor is "in a sad state"?

Because nobody talked about armor due to not using it. People are tired of running max block, dodge, and MoM builds to clear the game.

Also, there are only two spells that deal physical damage, and only one of them does a considerable amount of it. They're also both subject to spell block and spell dodge, which mitigate much more damage than armor ever will due to making just about every cast deal zero damage. Oh, and the few that do get by are mitigated either by Lightning Coil or MoM/CoD. What's armor have against them? Nothing.