The sad state that is Armor

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B34C0N wrote:

Evasion - Lineal - works randomly - i agree.

Actually it doesn't, or rather it does only partially work randomly (as long as you are attacked before the six second reseeding, there's no randomness involved).

I've been living a lie... all this time. Can't believe it. He must be trolling me he must be!

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B34C0N wrote:

Evasion - Lineal - works randomly - i agree.
ES - Lineal - act as extra health too - penalty? time - i agree.
Armor - Tuned ok if you best affix it to certain degree for performance and only then becomes viable - Hard work, craftmanship, luck - i agree.
Armor - underperforms - if not in level, if not affixed properly - You answered yourself - i agree.
Mobs+mods+uniques - melt you down - even still if you have a good degree of armour - i disagree: Mods, unique mobs, etc. are meant to be defeated while parting. Dont go blame it all on armour itself, yes, you might die if you try to solo it with "certain level of armor". But since armor is flat-flat (how to explain it.. hmm) its a non scaling defense. Its not a "true armor" (it does not scales properly [in the meaning of items here and there] with content UNLESS - you go full-best-gear-level all sets - i.e. headslot, gauntlets, etc). Armor degree and flawed armor (as you state) are two different things. Don't mix them. Working as intended.

The only flaw i see (while i play): white drops for craftmanship...under-levled. But a lot under leveled, and mostly, with a lot things that gotta be "fixed" during the craft, meaning, even if you craft it properly, you still might be under the armor level for the next map. I would agree here if this is what you want to get to.

Dude...
First, Armor does nothing against non-physical.

Second, if you have the best armour in the game on all slots, there's not much else to do with that character in terms of challenge.
Why the hell would you even consider that scenario?

Let's say you're 95% done gearing yourself. And there comes a happy unique+mob+mod+crit=dead.
Why? Because between having the best and 95% best comes a huge increase in damage taken - specially when you include crits.
So everyone's almost always in the "armour underperforms" or "armour tuned ok" zone.
Not acceptable.
But armour is also "too good" against weak hits.

I have identified the problems clearly. Armour's design fails at 3 levels:
1 - Every point of Armour below perfect itemization represents an exponential increase to damage taken. For this the answer might be adjusting the curve (change 12 to 11 in the factor so that it becomes a bit harder for high hits to become overwhelming, but lower armour a bit to compensate, in turn making weak attacks not so weak).
2 - Armour has no effect on elemental damage. For this the answer is letting X% of your armour work against elemental damage. Remains flavourful and intuitive.
3 - Armour is extremely vulnerable to crits (from the ONLY source of damage it "supposedly" defends against). For this the answer is making armour reduce effectiveness of the bonus damage from critical hits, in an exponential way (larger crits suffer a heavier mitigation of their bonus damage).

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Nurvus wrote:

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B34C0N wrote:

Evasion - Lineal - works randomly - i agree.
ES - Lineal - act as extra health too - penalty? time - i agree.
Armor - Tuned ok if you best affix it to certain degree for performance and only then becomes viable - Hard work, craftmanship, luck - i agree.
Armor - underperforms - if not in level, if not affixed properly - You answered yourself - i agree.
Mobs+mods+uniques - melt you down - even still if you have a good degree of armour - i disagree: Mods, unique mobs, etc. are meant to be defeated while parting. Dont go blame it all on armour itself, yes, you might die if you try to solo it with "certain level of armor". But since armor is flat-flat (how to explain it.. hmm) its a non scaling defense. Its not a "true armor" (it does not scales properly [in the meaning of items here and there] with content UNLESS - you go full-best-gear-level all sets - i.e. headslot, gauntlets, etc). Armor degree and flawed armor (as you state) are two different things. Don't mix them. Working as intended.

The only flaw i see (while i play): white drops for craftmanship...under-levled. But a lot under leveled, and mostly, with a lot things that gotta be "fixed" during the craft, meaning, even if you craft it properly, you still might be under the armor level for the next map. I would agree here if this is what you want to get to.

Dude...
First, Armor does nothing against non-physical.

Second, if you have the best armour in the game on all slots, there's not much else to do with that character in terms of challenge.
Why the hell would you even consider that scenario?

Let's say you're 95% done gearing yourself. And there comes a happy unique+mob+mod+crit=dead.
Why? Because between having the best and 95% best comes a huge increase in damage taken - specially when you include crits.
So everyone's almost always in the "armour underperforms" or "armour tuned ok" zone.
Not acceptable.
But armour is also "too good" against weak hits.

I have identified the problems clearly. Armour's design fails at 3 levels:
1 - Every point of Armour below perfect itemization represents an exponential increase to damage taken. For this the answer might be adjusting the curve (change 12 to 11 in the factor so that it becomes a bit harder for high hits to become overwhelming, but lower armour a bit to compensate, in turn making weak attacks not so weak).
2 - Armour has no effect on elemental damage. For this the answer is letting X% of your armour work against elemental damage. Remains flavourful and intuitive.
3 - Armour is extremely vulnerable to crits (from the ONLY source of damage it "supposedly" defends against). For this the answer is making armour reduce effectiveness of the bonus damage from critical hits, in an exponential way (larger crits suffer a heavier mitigation of their bonus damage).

1. But of course armor does nothing against non-physical. Its like saying cold resist does nothing against fire elemental dmg.

2. Armor is not capped as far as i know. So you can stack it if you want to.

3. There are anti-crit-dmg nodes (those nodes prevent you from taking that % amount of aditional killing dmg). I would agree not all chars have access to them, but hey, we aint talking about that now are we?

4. Not acceptable? and adding exta elemental % dmg voids to the armor is your answer? - I dont agree with you, other players may also not agree with you, and the Devs, of course they won't agree with you. Why? cause point 1 kills any credibility you may had so far.

5. Also im not being a troll with you (not my purpose), its just the adjustments you provide seem really really op. (i.e.- "%" by itself its a lot of scaling. Either, against elemental dmg % or adding extra (without counting the nodes in the passive tree) armor %. Everything is: from my personal perspective. Just giving my opinion here (my way of measure is: not everything is math or stats, involves gameplay also, skill, and a sense of fun that maybe differ from yours).

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Nurvus wrote:

1 - Every point of Armour below perfect itemization represents an exponential increase to damage taken. For this the answer might be adjusting the curve (change 12 to 11 in the factor so that it becomes a bit harder for high hits to become overwhelming, but lower armour a bit to compensate, in turn making weak attacks not so weak).

Your "solution" isn't a good one. This would make the character even more immune to small hits while making it also seriously protected against heavier hits.

It merely changes the curve.
The small hits only occur where you overgear content anyway.
The problem is that a little less armour represents a tiny loss in reduction vs weak hits, but a HUGE loss in damage reduction vs big hits, to the point that either you have the best armour, or you're better off using something else...
The curve is too steep.
The buff to performance with top gear will be marginal.
The change is most noticeable with suboptimal gear.

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Nurvus wrote:

2 - Armour has no effect on elemental damage. For this the answer is letting X% of your armour work against elemental damage. Remains flavourful and intuitive.

That's your point of view. I think it only makes the character more dependant on its armour value, which means good armour becomes too good while mediocre armour becomes too weak.

I'm suggesting a simple buff. Armour will do MORE than it does now.
It currently does ZERO against elemental. And starts doing... more than zero.
How the hell did you manage to "understand" that "it only makes the character more dependant on its armour value".

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Nurvus wrote:

3 - Armour is extremely vulnerable to crits (from the ONLY source of damage it "supposedly" defends against). For this the answer is making armour reduce effectiveness of the bonus damage from critical hits, in an exponential way (larger crits suffer a heavier mitigation of their bonus damage).

If armour is reworked so that it doesn't specifically suffer from a weakness to big hits, then this isn't an issue anymore.

And why shouldn't it suffer from big hits?
You come criticizing my idea when you want GGG to turn this into a damn WoW?
Monster Level based mitigation? Are you kidding me?
Evasion has a niche of dealing with big slow hits the best.
Energy Shield is an all-rounder ideal for those that avoid contact.
Armour is best to shrug off weak blows.

The problem with Armour is that against the biggest physical hits or elemental damage, you might as well be naked.

My suggestion doesn't really change the behavior against big hits. And it doesn't have to.
It merely softens the impact that the BONUS damage from a crit has on the mitigation formula.
So the big HIT is still there, and is still nasty. The bonus crit damage is still there, but better mitigated.

So if a 1000 hit deals 1000 bonus crit damage (2000 total), it may (hypotetically) be mitigated into 800 bonus crit damage before the Armour's normal damage reduction kicks in.
The way the Armour formula works, instead of a 3% damage reduction vs 2000 crit, you may end up with 10% damage reduction vs 1800 crit.



I'm not here because I love Armour.
I just love balance.

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Your arguments make me keep my position about armour efficiency scaling off the wrong variable.

Don't fool yourself.
You decided that long before you read my post.

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Nurvus wrote:

It merely changes the curve.
The small hits only occur where you overgear content anyway.
The problem is that a little less armour represents a tiny loss in reduction vs weak hits, but a HUGE loss in damage reduction vs big hits, to the point that either you have the best armour, or you're better off using something else...

You can't go running around without armor. You know it, i know it, everyone knows it. You cant just state: "you're better off using something else" - There is no something else against phys-attacks.

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Nurvus wrote:

The curve is too steep.
The buff to performance with top gear will be marginal.
The change is most noticeable with suboptimal gear.

That's just a relative statement.

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Nurvus wrote:

My suggestion doesn't really change the behavior against big hits. And it doesn't have to.
It merely softens the impact that the BONUS damage from a crit has on the mitigation formula.
So the big HIT is still there, and is still nasty. The bonus crit damage is still there, but better mitigated.

The change doesn't seem of much importance, but in a long term, the players will surpass the mobs dmg/sec cap, meaning, you will be able to survive A-LOT-MORE. More even so, to be able to run a better glass cannon build.

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Nurvus wrote:

So if a 1000 hit deals 1000 bonus crit damage (2000 total), it may (hypotetically) be mitigated into 800 bonus crit damage before the Armour's normal damage reduction kicks in.
The way the Armour formula works, instead of a 3% damage reduction vs 2000 crit, you may end up with 10% damage reduction vs 1800 crit.

Actually, its 150% for crits, it would be 1500 instead of 1000 but, lets back to the point (the example). In your example, the player mitigates without penalty (not talking about the movspeed pen) ALL that damage that make poe a hardcore game, and for free. I hope i was clear on that one. If you want to give something good, it really needs a kind of risk, penalty, etc. otherwise, its not fun (at least from my perspective).

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Nurvus wrote:

Spoiler

There are various scenarios:
- PhyAtk
- PhySpell
- EleAtk
- EleSpell
- ChaosAtk
- ChaosSpell
Let's consider 4 magnitudes of damage:
- Tiny
- Average
- Large
- Huge (those nasty crits)

vs PhyAtks Tiny, Armour > Eva = ES
vs PhyAtks Average, Armour = Eva = ES
vs PhyAtks Large, Eva = ES > Armour
vs PhyAtks Huge, Eva > ES > Armour
vs PhySpells Tiny, Armour > ES > Eva (Dodge)
vs PhySpells Average, Armour = ES > Eva (Dodge)
vs PhySpells Large, ES > Armour = Eva (Dodge)
vs PhySPells Huge, ES > Eva (Dodge) > Armour
vs EleAtk / ChaosAtk Tiny/Average, ES = Eva >>>>>>>> Armour (useless)
vs EleAtk / ChaosAtk Large, ES = Eva >>>>>>>> Armour (useless)
vs EleAtk / ChaosAtk Large, Eva > ES >>>>>>>> Armour (useless)
vs EleSpell / ChaosSpell, ES > Eva (Dodge) >>>>>>>> Armour (useless)

With my Suggestion:
- Armour is still inferior to both ES and Eva against at least Large and Huge elemental hits.
- Huge physical damage is still Armour's weakness, but surprise mega crits are less faceroll.
Because, let's be decent here... if a fully armoured guy EVER feels naked against an attack, it's just ridiculous.

Nice table but, i gotta say:

When you go Eva or Es, you are not really mitigating any sht, i mean, before impact kicks in, ES acts in form of health (extra health) It evaluates if you have armor, e-resists, c-resist before the hit (as far as i know). What do i mean with that?: you basically just increased the health pool to take the first big hit (thats why you think ES is better). However, if there's is a second big hit (a quick one), as in the first hit, YOU DID NOT MITIGATED ANYTHING (if you dont have armor or resists). With eva the risk is even higher, if time lapses (cause it seems, its not random) you will *glup* the big hit, nastier than any other defense stat, and you will drown there. No armor, no extra health, just raw time-lapse between 1 hit (well, not hit - attack - hit is when you really got hit) and another.

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Nurvus wrote:

I'm not here because I love Armour.
I just love balance.

I like balance too, but, i can't give a thumbs up to something that would provide too much security. I feel it that way when i read it.

Sorry not gonna quote everything.

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B34C0N wrote:

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Nurvus wrote:

The curve is too steep.
The buff to performance with top gear will be marginal.
The change is most noticeable with suboptimal gear.

That's just a relative statement.

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B34C0N wrote:

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Nurvus wrote:

My suggestion doesn't really change the behavior against big hits. And it doesn't have to.
It merely softens the impact that the BONUS damage from a crit has on the mitigation formula.
So the big HIT is still there, and is still nasty. The bonus crit damage is still there, but better mitigated.

The change doesn't seem of much importance, but in a long term, the players will surpass the mobs dmg/sec cap, meaning, you will be able to survive A-LOT-MORE. More even so, to be able to run a better glass cannon build.

Now that's a relative statement. A hyperbolic one at that!
Ironic, to say the least.

You're massively extrapolating that my change to the high end spikes of those uber crits automatically means making them too manageable.

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B34C0N wrote:

Nice table but, i gotta say:

When you go Eva or Es, you are not really mitigating any sht, i mean, before impact kicks in, ES acts in form of health (extra health) It evaluates if you have armor, e-resists, c-resist before the hit (as far as i know). What do i mean with that?: you basically just increased the health pool to take the first big hit (thats why you think ES is better). However, if there's is a second big hit (a quick one), as in the first hit, YOU DID NOT MITIGATED ANYTHING (if you dont have armor or resists). With eva the risk is even higher, if time lapses (cause it seems, its not random) you will *glup* the big hit, nastier than any other defense stat, and you will drown there. No armor, no extra health, just raw time-lapse between 1 hit (well, not hit - attack - hit is when you really got hit) and another.

When you play ES, you have a greatly increased pool and you're likely on a gameplay that involves hit and run.

When you play Eva, you're going to avoid most blows, AND it's almost impossible to crit you due to the accuracy check required to confirm the crit.
So Evasion pretty much only deals with the "huge hits", but rarely with the "uber crits".

When you play full Armour, however, there's no "timelapse". You just eat every single hit and crit coming your way.
All crits will be crits because every mob ALWAYS hits you.
Meaning you can take 2-3-4-5 nasty blows in a row without escape.

There's plenty of danger WITHOUT the crits.

Once you place crits into the mix, everything goes to shit.
I'm not suggesting the removal of dangerously high damage.
I'm not even suggesting the removal of dangerously high crits - just softening those spikes.

Between two incoming crits: 4000 and 5000, the 5000 will be LESS mitigated, meaning it's not just 1000 damage higher, but most likely 1200~1500.

That's what I'm talking about. A little more damage and it quickly becomes TOO much damage.

I'm only suggesting to SOFTEN the curve.
You understand this?

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Nurvus wrote:

When you play full Armour, however, there's no "timelapse". You just eat every single hit and crit coming your way.
All crits will be crits because every mob ALWAYS hits you.
Meaning you can take 2-3-4-5 nasty blows in a row without escape.

They miss hits also, the only problem i see are the unavoidable phys-spells, but, even then, you gotta roll some Eva (even if you go all armor, with only 20% eva rate you should be fine), and also, you got pots, and you can run away from most attacks.

If there would be a "without escape" variable, threads would be all over the place about that subject.

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Nurvus wrote:

There's plenty of danger WITHOUT the crits.

Once you place crits into the mix, everything goes to shit.
I'm not suggesting the removal of dangerously high damage.
I'm not even suggesting the removal of dangerously high crits - just softening those spikes.

Between two incoming crits: 4000 and 5000, the 5000 will be LESS mitigated, meaning it's not just 1000 damage higher, but most likely 1200~1500.

That's what I'm talking about. A little more damage and it quickly becomes TOO much damage.

I'm only suggesting to SOFTEN the curve.
You understand this?

Yes i understand the point, i understand everything you just said. Where's the penalty?


But, let's say we go your way:

-What is going to be the penalty for this SOFT change? I just want to know that, and i must agree with it (in terms of balance). Convince me, and take it as if you want to also convince other hardcore players and the Devs themselves.

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B34C0N wrote:

They miss hits also, the only problem i see are the unavoidable phys-spells, but, even then, you gotta roll some Eva (even if you go all armor, with only 20% eva rate you should be fine), and also, you got pots, and you can run away from most attacks.

If there would be a "without escape" variable, threads would be all over the place about that subject.

So according to you, Unwavering Stance and Iron Reflexes shouldn't exist, because you "gotta roll some Eva".
You're just proving my point that Amour isn't working.

Full Armour and Armour+ES are the worst defense styles in the game AGAINST proper content.
Coincidentally they're pretty strong against weak enemies. Which is totally what this game is about.

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B34C0N wrote:

But, let's say we go your way:

-What is going to be the penalty for this SOFT change? I just want to know that, and i must agree with it (in terms of balance). Convince me, and take it as if you want to also convince other hardcore players and the Devs themselves.

What penalty? There should be a penalty if Armour was fine.
Turns out it isn't fine, and needs a buff to its (lack of) response against high damage spikes.

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Nurvus wrote:

So according to you, Unwavering Stance and Iron Reflexes shouldn't exist, because you "gotta roll some Eva".
You're just proving my point that Amour isn't working.

No, i just said: dont rely ONLY in one thing, you gotta have a backup plan to some extent (i.e. Armor+health) Now you see how iron reflexes also work? you give up on some extent of Eva or almost all of it. But you get more Armor in exchange, therefore, you only need to stack more heatlh (you just gave up on Eva by choice, you cant have all stats rolling at the same time).

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Nurvus wrote:

Full Armour and Armour+ES are the worst defense styles in the game AGAINST proper content.
Coincidentally they're pretty strong against weak enemies. Which is totally what this game is about.

Has been said already that this kind of Hybrid items lack reliability. Yes, the time penalty on the ES of the hybrid item makes it (realtively speaking) unreliable to some extent. Why? needs recharge. And you gotta run around to not get hit or the "refresh time" resets (6 secs i believe).

But: You just answered yourself again. Proper content = party up. It is designed that way.

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B34C0N wrote:

But, let's say we go your way:

-What is going to be the penalty for this SOFT change? I just want to know that, and i must agree with it (in terms of balance). Convince me, and take it as if you want to also convince other hardcore players and the Devs themselves.

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Nurvus wrote:

What penalty? There should be a penalty if Armour was fine.
Turns out it isn't fine, and needs a buff to its (lack of) response against high damage spikes.

I can't accept the buff you're talking about. Movement speed penalty its not enough. You want more armor effectiveness without giving any other chance/possibility to a "window" for vulnerability. You said: "we are ALREADY vulnerable" - i disagree, top players are capable of reaching lvl 100, they haven't complained about armor. They even rush content. Even "proper content". Also, game is designed to be a challenge. Challenge means: it may not be equal or "it may have a handicap degree". HC players: Nice. You: armor needs a buff.

Also, we discarded the possibility that those "uber-mobs" that you describe might be the real problem and not the armor. Unique enemies usually have some Dev-extra-love variables.

So:

-What uber-mob-crits do you refer to?
-Which mods are you running? or in wich mod you felt it was uberly-unbalanced?
-Did other members of your party complained about it too?
-Where are those ppl IF they DID so complained?
-League? etc

Give a full file complaint with context. Dont come and say "armor is sad". I'm saying it in the most respectful of ways.