Unique Endless Map

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TikoXi wrote:

You, my fellow, are suffering from author's blindness. You're so pleased with the notion of what you've created, you are covering your ears and singing lalala whenever someone tells you it's not a great idea.

So because you decide to troll and just make problems I'm suddenly the one who has the problem?

You just don't know when to quit, do you?

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TikoXi wrote:

"No I'm not!" I hear you cry. Your last sentence is literally that, in fewer words.

On the contrary, I've called you out for what you are and you're unable to prove me wrong.

So why attack me further?

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TikoXi wrote:

It's not a good idea.
Current design is heavily flawed. I've told you why.

...and I've told you how your reasons are wrong. Perhaps you should try reading them?

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TikoXi wrote:

Take your arrogance and your ego, and shove it. Together or one in each end, I really don't care.

Do you know what those mean?

Arrogance, put simply, is not giving up because of pride. If you look at my posting history you'll see that I haven't shown any. Let's also look at how I acted when you first posted:

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Natharias wrote:

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TikoXi wrote:

Nice idea, if ridiculously excessive and abusable.

Sure, builds would be able to do it, but that frankly just sounds obnoxious if anything.

Tone it down by about 70% and it can be Cowards trial 2.0. I'd be down for that.

It's not obnoxious. It's meant to be the true test for all builds, and even to top Atziri. Perhaps now you'll understand why I suggested it.

As to abusable, please explain how. You still only have six portals, uniques can only be dropped by the boss, and because you fight all of the non-Atziri bosses the one time he drops loot the rolls are lucky.

Plus, we're talking level 83 monsters at the end, so they're going to be tougher than anything anyone has ever faced.

I wouldn't call that arrogant.

I also wouldn't say that I'm showing egotism either. First time I spoke of myself was in this post I'm typing right now.

So how about you stop trolling? Either get on topic or get out.

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Natharias wrote:

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TikoXi wrote:

You, my fellow, are suffering from author's blindness. You're so pleased with the notion of what you've created, you are covering your ears and singing lalala whenever someone tells you it's not a great idea.

Still doing it.

And for the record:

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Natharias wrote:

At this point it's obvious you're trolling so take your attitude and shove it.

Has all the arrogance and egotisticism (is that a word? it is now...) one would need to make up a very disapproving mind.

He who protests loudest, yada yada yada and all that jazz.


And off the record: A way that quote could have seemed about 20 times less douchebaggy is if you put "opinion" instead of "attitude". One word makes all the difference, and saves you from looking like a snooty, self-assuring scumbucket.


Edit: Something I probably should have also clarified several posts ago: 52 areas in anything is too many. There are scarcely more than 52 areas across all 3 acts. (Individual areas: not waypoints)
That is what I meant by obnoxious. It's too damn long.

I like the idea, its like a mini-descent league in a map. You start as simple as you can only carry 6 portals of treasure out and it gets harder->impossible the farther you go, so you'd have to exit/die at some point. I don't know that the devs would go for an unlimited (52l) map.

Bump, since someone suggested something very similar.

This, as opposed to the similar thread that you mention, I think could be viable. Since it's a map that has to be looted/chanced, it doesn't run into the same sorts of problems (not nearly as abusable).

Also, people who are concerned about how long it would take to run:

1) anyone running this map is going to be high-end. they will crush the first half like they're nothing.

2) if it's that much of an issue, make them not full-sized maps.

As for dealing with XP "abuse":

This is a real concern. Giving a maximum level of 83 (and theoretically higher as more maps are added) is a massive boost over lvl 78-79 for ultra-high leveling. Simple solution is to cap the max map level lower. Say the level increases every 4, or 5, or whatever levels. Heck, you could even go all GGG and say that it's RNG -- there's an 'average' end level, but you have a chance of going higher or lower.

I think that the ideal lvl max would be either the same as the highest level other map in the game at any given point, or possibly that +1.

Map farming "abuse":

I think that this would be the #1 concern, given the cost of high-level maps, and the fact that you're running many maps of high level (even if it's capped lower as I suggested above). The portal limit also does not really impact this, as maps are small and someone soloing it would never use that much inventory space. The obvious solution would be something similar to the unique mod -- maps only drop from the bosses.

Question on quantity:

I didn't see anything about quantity (maybe I just missed it?), but if the cumulative mods add their quality as well, that would be an issue. I don't want to calculate it out, but we're talking many hundreds of % bonus quantity (on top of pack size, fracturing, and beyond). while uniques couldn't drop, currency and 6ls or other valuable non-uniques could. Can I assume that since you didn't specifically mention it, the mods would not add their quantity bonus?

If you do want them to, I would strongly suggest nerfing it (maybe quantity bonus from mods is applied at 25%? that still gives the last maps the equivalent of a map with more than 10 mods).

Order of mod application:

it might be worth setting at least certain mods to a fixed application point. if you won the RNG lottery and got pack size/beyond early (not necessarily first/second maps, but even first 25% of maps), that would massively increase the benefits of the map vs someone who was unlucky and got them late (say last 25%). I can't begin to actually calculate the difference, but ballparking it I'd say it's something like 3-4x the xp/loot if run properly and you're lucky, and 1/2 the xp/loot if unlucky (both compared to average luck).

I'll also point out that there is something of a precedent in the Hall of Grandmasters, although the two ideas are obviously still significantly different in nature.

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Natharias wrote:

Special properties: Boss' drops are lucky. No uniques can drop from white, magical, or rare monsters.

1: I'd phrase that as, "Only unique monsters can drop unique items."

2: In the interest of not producing a game breaking amount of items from over 100 bosses, I would add the additional property of, "Only the last boss on each level drops items."
Maybe have the drops be Extra Lucky or something, but otherwise that many items is going to crash somebody's game. Some computers are just not equipped to deal with that many items.
And God forbid you try to look at them, no matter how beefy your pc is.

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Natharias wrote:

As to abusable, please explain how. You still only have six portals, uniques can only be dropped by the boss, and because you fight all of the non-Atziri bosses the one time he drops loot the rolls are lucky.

Oh. I see.

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tsftd wrote:

Order of mod application:

it might be worth setting at least certain mods to a fixed application point. if you won the RNG lottery and got pack size/beyond early (not necessarily first/second maps, but even first 25% of maps), that would massively increase the benefits of the map vs someone who was unlucky and got them late (say last 25%). I can't begin to actually calculate the difference, but ballparking it I'd say it's something like 3-4x the xp/loot if run properly and you're lucky, and 1/2 the xp/loot if unlucky (both compared to average luck).

Well that's RNG for you, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose, but the only real losers on this map are the ones who manage to die 6 times without filling their inventories. I personally don't have a problem with this kind of RNG, it's like getting a 6l; the QQ is real.

less than 100 bosses, I believe. I don't think he was counting unique maps.

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tsftd wrote:

1) anyone running this map is going to be high-end. they will crush the first half like they're nothing.

The map is supposed to be similar to a regular map when first launched, but become the strongest map to clear. At least in terms of PvE, as this doesn't use grandmasters for PvP.

I'll update the OP with a few things.

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tsftd wrote:

As for dealing with XP "abuse":

This is a real concern. Giving a maximum level of 83 (and theoretically higher as more maps are added) is a massive boost over lvl 78-79 for ultra-high leveling. Simple solution is to cap the max map level lower. Say the level increases every 4, or 5, or whatever levels. Heck, you could even go all GGG and say that it's RNG -- there's an 'average' end level, but you have a chance of going higher or lower.

I'll update the OP, but no. The map is supposed to reach the highest level possible, and even with the regular method (3 maps vendored to get one higher) it only reaches 83. This is nowhere near 100, which is what I want it to be able to do.

And monster level is a huge factor in difficulty. I'd rather face level 72s with 100% damage as fire, cold, and lightning than a few level 100s without any of those mods. This is because magics and rares will be extremely powerful with the few mods they get from their rarity.

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tsftd wrote:

Map farming "abuse":

I think that this would be the #1 concern, given the cost of high-level maps, and the fact that you're running many maps of high level (even if it's capped lower as I suggested above). The portal limit also does not really impact this, as maps are small and someone soloing it would never use that much inventory space. The obvious solution would be something similar to the unique mod -- maps only drop from the bosses.

That's one reason I wanted to not limit drops on this map, aside from unqiues being dropped from the boss only. This is going to strain players when playing this map, and not to mention that you'll likely die long before you get to the final "final" boss.

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tsftd wrote:

Question on quantity:

I didn't see anything about quantity (maybe I just missed it?), but if the cumulative mods add their quality as well, that would be an issue. I don't want to calculate it out, but we're talking many hundreds of % bonus quantity (on top of pack size, fracturing, and beyond). while uniques couldn't drop, currency and 6ls or other valuable non-uniques could. Can I assume that since you didn't specifically mention it, the mods would not add their quantity bonus?

If you do want them to, I would strongly suggest nerfing it (maybe quantity bonus from mods is applied at 25%? that still gives the last maps the equivalent of a map with more than 10 mods).

Very good point. Re-read the OP once you see a bolded "Updated OP with more info" or something.

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tsftd wrote:

Order of mod application:

it might be worth setting at least certain mods to a fixed application point. if you won the RNG lottery and got pack size/beyond early (not necessarily first/second maps, but even first 25% of maps), that would massively increase the benefits of the map vs someone who was unlucky and got them late (say last 25%). I can't begin to actually calculate the difference, but ballparking it I'd say it's something like 3-4x the xp/loot if run properly and you're lucky, and 1/2 the xp/loot if unlucky (both compared to average luck).

No, I want the mods to be random and unknown, as that itself is a powerful drawback. Again I'll update the OP.

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tsftd wrote:

less than 100 bosses, I believe. I don't think he was counting unique maps.

All unique maps. All bosses.