Trade Hate: Which one takes more skill?

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MierenEronaile wrote:

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LSN wrote:

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MierenEronaile wrote:

@lsn.

That bit about SFL increasing restrictions and not reducing them is a straight up lie by you.

Adding an entire new league, factually, on its own, can not increase restrictions. Its another choice overall, factually.

Honestly..

He said it is always good to have more options and less restrictions. Ofc in the first hand implementing SFL does increases options for players. The option for more restrictions and limited options striktly speaking. Obviously he was lying when saying that he always ...

The fact the new league has restrictions does NOT RESTRICT ANYONE more than they are already restricted.

Well not you and me probably. When new players start playing, even if they know the meaning of the word SFL, they probably cant think through the whole decision that they are going to make and can't know that and how much it can limit them later on when they understand the game better. All players get limited by the fact that they cant play with these friends anymore that decided to play in SFL. All players get limited by the fact that increasing leagues from 4 to 8 will reduce player numbers dramatically in each league and therefore interaction abilities (=group play, trading, chatting etc.) which will accelerate the process of dying leagues.

The initial decision of playing SF or trade league is limiting the player in being able to intuitivly doing the right choice, which is simple math. While perm vs temp isnt that much of a deal (as both join each other later on) SFL vs non SFL will be the same as hc vs sc and never be brought together. It is limiting the new player as well to just start and play the game open mindedly but forcing him to think through his decision already then (what the new player probably cannot at this point).




@Lugrum
Yes its alot of bullshit what you write. Such as no hc SFL is needed. Why isnt it needed? Because you want to play only SC SFL? It's bullshit. Nothing else of what you say makes any sense to me too but comes out of self-interest. Maintaining the idea of how much options a SFL would grant to players is bullshit too. The opposite is the true imo.

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LSN wrote:

@Lugrum
Yes its alot of bullshit what you write. Such as no hc SFL is needed.

I did not write that. you project, and insult me for things i never even said.

There is no 'right' choice there. They will choose what they want to play, and a simple note saying 'this league is not recommended for new players' would solve the problem you are mentioning. Not to mention most new players probably just go straight into the softcore 4month by default..

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Lugrum wrote:

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LSN wrote:

@Lugrum
Yes its alot of bullshit what you write. Such as no hc SFL is needed.

I did not write that. you project, and insult me for things i never even said.

Well at least you said that all leagues should be permanent and 4 new leagues are not necessary when implementing SFL and one would be enough!? Wasn't it you saying this?

If you don't understand that giving fresh ppl the option to start in a fresh league every 4 months is essential for PoE (and was for d2 already) and more important than having a SFL then it is at least not far to assume that you want just your permanent SFL now. What happens with guys who want a fresh start in SFL in ~1 year from now or in hc didnt seem to care you at all (which was part of the debate why 8 leagues would have to be created out of 4, which you denied as well).

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MierenEronaile wrote:

There is no 'right' choice there. They will choose what they want to play, and a simple note saying 'this league is not recommended for new players' would solve the problem you are mentioning. Not to mention most new players probably just go straight into the softcore 4month by default..

I agree here. Still negative side effects would occur frequently for a large portion of players. To repeat just one: hc standard and sc standard are considered "dead" and "dump leagues" by many players already. Do you think this would improve or worsen this ongoing process when doubling leagues from 4 to 8?



Anyway the best choice for GGG is to implement SF gameplay in the existing pattern of leagues and other than that to improve balance and enlarge endgame content instead of creating 4 self-found leagues.

It would make no difference at ALL to a self found league if players characters were 'dumped' into it, because they would not have to trade with a giant new pool of resources.

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MierenEronaile wrote:

It would make no difference at ALL to a self found league if players characters were 'dumped' into it, because they would not have to trade with a giant new pool of resources.

I'm against it because it would divide the player base and there's no reason for PoE to try to copy D3 (which was a huge failure).

However, your point is valid, and that means there would be no real need for temporary leauges for SF players. After all, they can just roll up a new character if they want a fresh start.

This still means you would need at least 2 leagues: HC-SFL and SC-SFL. Instead of dividing the player base 4 ways (how it is now), this would divide it 6 ways. No thank you.

Beyond that, most of you pro-SFL people can't even agree amongst each other what you really want from such a league, so there's no reason for GGG to even consider it right now. You might have legitimate ground to stand on if you could collectively agree on what it is you want, and together convey this to GGG, but I don't see that happening... ever.

Thing is, all we fundamentally need to agree on is 'a league where noone can trade with anyone else' and that would work. The other thing worth noting is even though you might split it 6 ways, I dont think even a third of people would do it so.. and a lot of the people you would lose from the main leagues already dont interact much..

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LSN wrote:

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Lugrum wrote:

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LSN wrote:

@Lugrum
Yes its alot of bullshit what you write. Such as no hc SFL is needed.

I did not write that. you project, and insult me for things i never even said.

Well at least you said that all leagues should be permanent and 4 new leagues are not necessary when implementing SFL and one would be enough!? Wasn't it you saying this?

If you don't understand that giving fresh ppl the option to start in a fresh league every 4 months is essential for PoE (and was for d2 already) and more important than having a SFL then it is at least not far to assume that you want just your permanent SFL now. What happens with guys who want a fresh start in SFL in ~1 year from now or in hc didnt seem to care you at all (which was part of the debate why 8 leagues would have to be created out of 4, which you denied as well

As far as i can recall, I never said one is enough. And i did not say we won't need 4. I did not deny we need to double the existing leagues. I did not make any concrete suggestion on how to implement a sfl. I was thinking about the idea in General. Maybe chill out a bit :\

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AlbinosaurusRex wrote:

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MierenEronaile wrote:

It would make no difference at ALL to a self found league if players characters were 'dumped' into it, because they would not have to trade with a giant new pool of resources.

I'm against it because it would divide the player base and there's no reason for PoE to try to copy D3 (which was a huge failure).

However, your point is valid, and that means there would be no real need for temporary leauges for SF players. After all, they can just roll up a new character if they want a fresh start.

This still means you would need at least 2 leagues: HC-SFL and SC-SFL. Instead of dividing the player base 4 ways (how it is now), this would divide it 6 ways. No thank you.

Beyond that, most of you pro-SFL people can't even agree amongst each other what you really want from such a league, so there's no reason for GGG to even consider it right now. You might have legitimate ground to stand on if you could collectively agree on what it is you want, and together convey this to GGG, but I don't see that happening... ever.

The people that would switch to a SFL are the same people that do not trade, or dislike it now. You would be losing nothing in terms of economy by 'losing' those people. SF players are also much more likely to be solo, meaning you would lose very little in the way of party members.

You are basically saying we should not give players more options because you don't want them to leave your league.

D3 most certainly did not implement SF properly. Why is that? They give no options to their players. PoE is successful because there are so many options in this game. Simply having the option of a SFL will increase the amount of players total, not decrease it.

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rrtson wrote:

There's a lot of hate for trade. So much so, that I've realized it's affected the way people look at the process of acquiring items. Case in point: I often find it amusing that someone would actually congratulate me on a lucky drop, as if I had any sort of control over my windfall (beyond stacking a shit-ton of IIR/IIQ). In the same vein, I see certain people demanding a SFL (self-found league) which they claim will somehow make the game more fun and/or dependent on player skill/knowledge. So let me ask, if I wanted to acquire these 3 items:

Does it require more skill and/or knowledge about the game to:

• 1. Kill monsters for currency/items
• 2. Understand the currency/item market trends
• 3. Manage your "bankroll" to balance the risk/reward of buying/selling certain items
• 4. Successfully negotiate with other human players to strike a deal

or

• 1. Kill monsters, hoping for a lucky drop

good! +1