Are the Bandits actually worth it?

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kasub wrote:

To clarify things, I'll list the current rewards and what I think of them.

Normal:

Oak: 40 life. It's phenomenal and a must have for any life build. It is one of the best HP passives efficiency wise in the game

Alira: 40 mana. This is terrible. 10% ES is actually a good suggestion. Another one is 40% mana regen.

Kraityn: 8% all res. If going for all res then 12% all res is quite good as a choice. People often take those nodes. Your suggestion is beyond overpowered and does not exist anywhere on the tree. That would become the default choice for ALL builds(except summoner).

cruel:

Oak: 18% physical. This is stronger than most physical nodes and quite appropriate. It's picked often even. I actually consider it stronger than your suggestion except for builds like RF.

Alira: 4 castspeed. this should be 6 castspeed after the spellcaster buff. That would make it better than the several 4% castspeed nodes easily available. Your suggestion is easily overpowered and beats any passive point.

Kraityn: 8% IAS. This is probably the best cruel reward and practically unmatched on the tree. Beserking is now only 6% IAS per node. The only node that matches it efficiency wise is the 1st ranger node(which is followed by a 20% acc node which is rarely ideal). So this is already quite strong.

All merciless ones are quite reasonable.

I agree.

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the rewards have to be... way better than a skillpoint

.....then.......

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Make it a real choice

See the contradiction?

Your criticism of 4% cast speed as a reward when there are lots of 3% nodes is a good example. They are clearly comparable, in many cases 4% cast speed will be better than whatever you would have spent the extra point on, even if only by a small amount. It's situational, they are comparable but the better option will depend on a bunch of factors concerning your build and your tree. I think it's a really well balanced option. If it was higher, going for it instead of the passive would be a no brainer, and there would be no "real choice" to be made. Same goes for attack speed.

I don't think 4 cast is appropriate anymore. Almost all good cast nodes now give 4 cast per point and are rarely all taken. If you want it to be equivalent to 8 IAS then 6 castspeed would work.

I want them to be better than skillpoints because a skillpoint is more flexible.

I can put it into anything I like, and if we are not talking about Lvl 100 characters, the current rewards are basically a "skillpoint". You will always find something somewhere in the tree that would give you about the same benefit (Oh look, another 15% damage node. Almost same as Oak cruel).

I would like Kraityn to be damage-man, Oak to be tank-man, and Alira to be sustain-girl.

So whenever I reach them, I make a decision.
"Am I greedy and go for the damage? Or do I need more tank? Alira could really help me solve my mana issues..."

Going for the skillpoint should be a choice for someone who can't decide or for weird builds that don't want any of it, not an equal choice.

Why should that be overpowered? Everyone of us encounters the bandits and takes the reward. So how could that be considered a problem? Even if Oak gave you 300 flat life and Alira gave +50% Energyshield, as long as everybody can take it, what would be the issue?

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At the current state, the offers of most bandits are underwhelming. I know, "opportunity costs" make them stronger than most skillpoints, but it just feels so unsignificant. So lazy. And so obvious what you should take.

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Peterlerock wrote:

Why should that be overpowered? Everyone of us encounters the bandits and takes the reward. So how could that be considered a problem? Even if Oak gave you 300 flat life and Alira gave +50% Energyshield, as long as everybody can take it, what would be the issue?

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At the current state, the offers of most bandits are underwhelming. I know, "opportunity costs" make them stronger than most skillpoints, but it just feels so unsignificant.

omfg

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At the current state, the offers of most bandits are underwhelming. I know, "opportunity costs" make them stronger than most skillpoints, but it just feels so unsignificant.

You admit they're stronger yet say they're underwhelming? I agree some need balance(alira/kraityn normal, alira cruel) but other then that they're all often taken and quite balanced.

I love theory crafting and optimizing builds. Taking at least 2 bandits happens with almost all builds I make.

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You will always find something somewhere in the tree that would give you about the same benefit

No you won't. Read my response earlier in this topic. Many of the rewards are something that far surpasses any passive point efficiency wise.

I think

1) Bandit rewards should be about equivalent to a notable passive. Most currently do, some not.
2) Should be aligned to STR/DEX/INT for Oak/Kraityn/Alira. Currently they do except for elemental resistance.
3) Rewards from each difficulty should fit a theme. Currently they do, except the Mana. Normal = defense, Cruel = offense, Merciless = charges.

What I'd like to see:

Normal - defensive theme
Full rework, Life is too good for any build that can use it while the others are just bad.

Oak should give 30% Armour. Either flat Life or % Life works as well for a defensive STR bonus, but I've long said that STR should give Armour instead of Life, mirroring DEX and INT. Then rebalance accordingly. However, this is a large undertaking at this point.

Kraityn should give 30% Evasion. Evasion is a no-brainer for DEX-aligned defense, resistance just makes no sense.

Alira should give 15% ES. Again, INT defense is ES. Nobody takes Mana, this is much better.

Cruel - offensive theme
Bonuses are all fine, just number tweaks.

Oak's reward is fine at 18% Physical damage. I could see bumping it to 24% if it was changed to Melee Physical only, but that isn't necessary.

Kraityn's 8% attack speed isn't terrible, but I would bump it up to 10-12%.

Alira's 4% cast speed is too low. Needs to go to 6% at least.

Merciless - charges
Perfect as is, leave it be.

Numbers can be tweaked as necessary, but these are all numbers found on the passive tree so it should be fine.

First I think the choices should be about equal to skill points.
Kraitlyn Normal is a bit underwhelming but Alira can work with MoM builds. But its limited should be ES. Cause then it would still work with MoM.

Maybe act 4 will have hybrid bandits eeeekkk that would be so cool

It's tough to balance something like this since they are the same for all classes, all leagues as well as races, and you get them at different points in the game but have to also take endgame in to account.

That being said, the normal rewards feel like relics from the beta at this point.

8 res was a lot more appealing when skeleton mages were actually deadly and ascending the pyramid was challenging. Now res is a fairly low priority in normal aside from lightning res when finishing off act 3. Physical is a lot bigger concern in general, especially since the introduction of evangelists.

40 mana was a lot more useful before the aura revamp. Now you're likely only to consider the mana reward if you're aiming for MoM or high arctic armor, but even then in normal it doesn't help you much. In Invasion even if I intend to go CI with AA I take the life reward. Would rather pay the respec cost in late game than not make it to late game.

The cruel rewards are ok. Maybe the faster cast should be 5% to being it in line with what you can pick up in the tree relative to the other rewards.