Improved Hailrake Fight in 1.1.3

just wanted to put this out there, seeing as ive been seeing some negative feedback about vaal stormcall. yall crazy if u think this things shitty. ITS A LIGHTNING VERSION OF FIRESTORM THAT AUTO AIMS BIACH. that is all.

Wow, I'm a little surprised my comment provoked such a fuss. For what its worth I'll attempt to clarify things a little, though I am sure the conversation has generally moved on from here.

Its a generally accepted principle of good game design that the rules that govern the game world and game mechanics should be revealed to the player. It makes for a less frustrating experience and eliminates one cause of cheap difficulty. This is why many, many games either have tutorials or treat the initial stages of a game as a tutorial like section. Some games drip feed the mechanics out over the course of the game to keep things fresh, but they generally make an effort to reveal them clearly prior to the point they are needed. Few games take the approach of kicking you to the ground, laughing in your face and then telling you that you needed to something you were not aware of before.

It is also a generally accepted principle of good game design that difficulty follows a fairly linear progression. Some difficulty spikes are fine, though they should not be major. The players abilities/gear etc usually follows along in a fairly linear progression linked to the difficulty.

Bearing those two points in mind...

My complaint was that PoE fails these two to a certain extent, with Merveil being an example of that. Up to this point new players may be completely unaware of the importance, almost even the relevance, of elemental damage and resists. Unfortunately looking back at the experience of a new player and understanding it is very hard once one has a lot of experience in a game and has engaged extensively with it and its community throughout its development. Comments like "In the Caverns leading up to Merveil, what damage types do the Unique Merveil's Daughters do?" or "Oh, I was dealing with a crapton of monsters that deal cold damage named Merveil's X and Nessa warned me Merveil is coming up, I should have gotten cold res!" simply reveal this. There is little to link the fact that a monster does cold damage or has cold resist to the fact that a nearby boss will do cold damage. Such a connection is not a fact of life, nor a fact of the ARPG genre generally (of course we should also bear in mind that new players may be completely new to the genre itself). Nor has anything in the game thus far particularly declared such a link. What seems so blindingly obvious that those who don't notice are dismissed as pathetic is really only made obvious in hindsight, and you don't normally expect a player to come into the game with such benefits... Furthermore, even if one makes the connection it still doesn't really help you when you run into the gear-check that is Merveil. Sure you've fought a 'crapton' of monsters dealing cold damage but what have you learnt from this that adequately prepares you for the boss fight ahead? Surprisingly little, but again that seems to be forgotten from the vantage point of hindsight. Why is this? Because there may be a 'crapton' of them, but they don't give the player any real trouble. Why then would we expect a new player to make the connection the lots of monsters dealing a little bit of cold damage = a boss that will insta-freeze you or slow you down to the speed of a slug? The connection is just not there without hindsight...

Instead of all the over reaction and emotive handwaving it would be more constructive if people would step back, acknowledge that there are other players (many, many, many more I would suggest) who do not fit your elite category - players who may have genuine concerns or issues that your vantage point is obscuring your ability to recognise - concerns that genuine or not may cause GGG to respond to them. It would therefore seem to be in the best interest of all concerned to attempt to find a constructive outcome that benefits as many people as possible. Even if it is simply finding ways to guide changes to occur in a manner that helps to mitigate what appears to be a 'dumbing down' to you. Simply labelling other peoples complaints or opinions as pathetic are hardly helping the solution and are also unlikely to move GGG to do things your way, thereby shooting yourself in the foot should they proceed to listen to more constructive voices.

Now I personally don't think that my basic suggestion of alerting new players near the start of the game to the importance of elemental resists is particularly game breaking or dumbing it down in any way meaningful. In fact I'd declare it to be no worse than mechanics already in place such as the tips provided on loading screens. Arguablly it could be seen to be more immersive, though immersion doesn't seem to be a driving concern for GGG. However if this is so terribly fatal to PoE then why not seek another way that teaches this lesson in a less 'dumb' way. Another approach that I would suggest that would achieve both points of good game design (ie. the revealling of game mechanics and the generally linear progression of difficulty) would be to beef up the fights leading up to Merveil. This way someone without the appropriate resists to fight Merveil (in this case) would get suitably punished before they get to her without getting absolutely destroyed by a mechanic that has held little relevance up to that point. If an unprepared player finds themselves struggling to get through these caverns they would be forced to confront the issue of elemental damage and resists early enough for it to make a difference. I would have thought a change like this would be the opposite of dumbing down or nerfing the game.

Anyway, I guess I'll leave people to their rage. After all there are more important things in life than getting worked up on internet forums...

@CanHasPants: Its a rare day when you find someone who promotes civility and reasonableness in discussions on internet forums. I tip my hat to you, sir.

"

SlixSC wrote:

The only problem with that is of course that you have designed the game in a way that requires players to have "a priori" knowledge of the game to beat it without dying (irrespective of natural skill).

Humans have had the ability to sense hot and cold for a long time. Depending on where you have lived, you will view the potential for damage differently. The game does make it clear that Merveil is freezing you like a popsicle.

Many games have the "resistance" mechanic. How seriously they take it, depends on the games they play.

The problem isn't the damage type, or knowledge of the damage type. The issue is players who don't take monster attacks seriously.

"

SlixSC wrote:

Information like that shouldn't be external to the game

Resists, life, hit recovery, blocking, armor etc are not new game mechanics.

If PoE is the very first time someone has played an ARPG, then yes, everything is new and strange. Otherwise, most of these character life threatening potentials have been around since the late 70s. Mice didn't exist at one point in time, but I surely hope games don't have to include in-game lore on how to left click and right click.




The lack of decent defenses in a build will definitely put some rough in your smooth.

The very first post-Lioneye's unique monster is Fire Fury, a cannibal that casts Firestorm at you. Other cannibals in the Coast throw molotov cocktails at you. This should clue you in that elemental damage exists and needs to be worried about.

From there, there are plenty of places where elemental damage is not only relevant, but dangerous. Hailrake (cold). The crabs in The Flooded Depths (cold). The Brood Princess in Upper Submerged (cold). The Burning Menace in The Prisoner's Gate (fire). Stranglecharm in The Ship Graveyard Cave (cold).

And these are just the unique monsters, never mind all the regular monsters they are based on (seething brines, merveil's X, cave skitterer's, flame hellions, etc. And then regular monsters that do elemental damage such as all those stinking goats.

How anyone can say that the game doesn't impress upon you the importance of resistances, especially cold in Act 1, is beyond me.

"

Ken_NZ wrote:

Its a generally accepted principle of good game design that the rules that govern the game world and game mechanics should be revealed to the player. It makes for a less frustrating experience and eliminates one cause of cheap difficulty. This is why many, many games either have tutorials or treat the initial stages of a game as a tutorial like section. Some games drip feed the mechanics out over the course of the game to keep things fresh, but they generally make an effort to reveal them clearly prior to the point they are needed. Few games take the approach of kicking you to the ground, laughing in your face and then telling you that you needed to something you were not aware of before.

It is also a generally accepted principle of good game design that difficulty follows a fairly linear progression. Some difficulty spikes are fine, though they should not be major. The players abilities/gear etc usually follows along in a fairly linear progression linked to the difficulty.

These are subjective statements at best. Boardgames, facebook games and MMO's catering to casual players like WOW should have the game design you are talking about.

For ARPG's and other games catering to a hardcore crowd, absolutely not. For a sizeable minority, discovery of the system mechanics, monster abilities and EoL Boss specials are a lot of fun. For others, teasing out the number ranges and synergies for above listed stats is fun. For others, etc.

"

Ken_NZ wrote:

Bearing those two points in mind...
My complaint was that PoE fails these two to a certain extent, with Merveil being an example of that. Up to this point new players may be completely unaware of the importance, almost even the relevance, of elemental damage and resists. Unfortunately looking back at the experience of a new player and understanding it is very hard once one has a lot of experience in a game and has engaged extensively with it and its community throughout its development. Comments like "In the Caverns leading up to Merveil, what damage types do the Unique Merveil's Daughters do?" or "Oh, I was dealing with a crapton of monsters that deal cold damage named Merveil's X and Nessa warned me Merveil is coming up, I should have gotten cold res!" simply reveal this. There is little to link the fact that a monster does cold damage or has cold resist to the fact that a nearby boss will do cold damage. Such a connection is not a fact of life, nor a fact of the ARPG genre generally (of course we should also bear in mind that new players may be completely new to the genre itself). Nor has anything in the game thus far particularly declared such a link. What seems so blindingly obvious that those who don't notice are dismissed as pathetic is really only made obvious in hindsight, and you don't normally expect a player to come into the game with such benefits... Furthermore, even if one makes the connection it still doesn't really help you when you run into the gear-check that is Merveil. Sure you've fought a 'crapton' of monsters dealing cold damage but what have you learnt from this that adequately prepares you for the boss fight ahead? Surprisingly little, but again that seems to be forgotten from the vantage point of hindsight. Why is this? Because there may be a 'crapton' of them, but they don't give the player any real trouble. Why then would we expect a new player to make the connection the lots of monsters dealing a little bit of cold damage = a boss that will insta-freeze you or slow you down to the speed of a slug? The connection is just not there without hindsight...

Instead of all the over reaction and emotive handwaving it would be more constructive if people would step back, acknowledge that there are other players (many, many, many more I would suggest) who do not fit your elite category - players who may have genuine concerns or issues that your vantage point is obscuring your ability to recognise - concerns that genuine or not may cause GGG to respond to them. It would therefore seem to be in the best interest of all concerned to attempt to find a constructive outcome that benefits as many people as possible. Even if it is simply finding ways to guide changes to occur in a manner that helps to mitigate what appears to be a 'dumbing down' to you. Simply labelling other peoples complaints or opinions as pathetic are hardly helping the solution and are also unlikely to move GGG to do things your way, thereby shooting yourself in the foot should they proceed to listen to more constructive voices.

I generally prefer not to say this, but this is some cry baby stuff. First, there is a wiki and a forum you could read. Second, Merveil is at the end of Act 1, so the time commitment was minimal and there is no death penalty on normal (unless you were playing hardcore, in which case you should know better). Being too lazy to read the forum and wiki, to keep you from being easily frustrated, is your fault. In a game where your first several characters are likely to fail due to bad design, crying about running around totally unaware of what you are doing and getting smacked for it after minimal time investment is asinine. If you want an easier game, read the wiki and forums. If that is too much work, POE may not be for you.

"

Archwizard wrote:

How anyone can say that the game doesn't impress upon you the importance of resistances, especially cold in Act 1, is beyond me.

And that, I believe, is the point--it's not beyond everybody. Your capacity to fit into the niche of PoE belies little regarding other players' potential to also fit, if they were given the opportunity to do so.

I am implying that PoE loses potentially well-fitting players because the non-apparent nature of PoE is abrasive, and it needn't be.

@Ken_NZ: One of my guild-mates said it best, I think: "it's the joy of discovery that keeps this game alive for me." The lack of in-game documentation is actually a feature for many of us, and that's how GGG intended it (according to early developer discussions, supported by Rhys's explanation of GGG's "hardcore"). It is intended players seek outside sources and conduct research into the game, and that they pay attention to their environment and learn from their mistakes.

I do agree, as was my initial premise, that GGG could take steps to make this more apparent. For a common player who, especially in a free to play game, expects to launch the game and begin playing, it is difficult to discern that we are meant to spend time outside of the game.. without having first spent time outside of the game. The dots are all there, but for a new player they are not all connected; I suggest that PoE would benefit by connecting those dots, and making this explicit knowledge.. that what a lot of players perceive as an issue with PoE's game design, is actually an issue of being made aware of, suddenly and without explanation, that this is the nature of PoE.

Edit: Just to be explicit, myself, and stop another circuitous round of posting before it starts, here is the most significant sentence made in my entire post. Everything else revolves around this:

"For a common player who, especially in a free to play game, expects to launch the game and begin playing, it is difficult to discern that we are meant to spend time outside of the game.. without having first spent time outside of the game. . . that what a lot of players perceive as an issue with PoE's game design, is actually an issue of being made aware of, suddenly and without explanation, that this is the nature of PoE." <--Implying: Path of Exile is unique in its lack of in-game documentation; Path of Exile would benefit from making this clear as not not lead players' pre-established expectations to the wrong conclusions.

some weird stuff being talked about. a lot of this talk on game mechanics is kinda "common sense stuff" if you open your character tab, and looked at it. you would see a lot of basic info about mechanics, pretty much every stat involving your character really. even hovering over the strength, dexterity, and intelligence circles provides basic info of what each stat would do.

if you looked at the passive tree, you would see each node does something, some involve stats, some involve damage, some have unique effects.

even if this was overwhelming for someone new, on the web page: game tab, overview tab, shows all the basics and majority of mechanics.

as for resistances, well if you cant understand that to protect yourself from fire - you need fire resistance, to reduce damage - you need armor. well then just GG uninstall and go back to school. you dont belong here.

if you dont "look" for the information, your as stupid as the customers that walk into the store and ask where the meat on sale is, while standing beside the giant bold lettered sign that they should have seen first instead of walking past it to bug the uniform.

"

unkempt wrote:

Redesigning the same fights over and over while never touching the other 90% seems a bit weird.

Yeah.. So much dev focus on a couple low levels even a day 1 new player will blow past in no time.

Why not stop worrying about level 1-10 balance for races and add some races where you start at 60?

You'll never have every class 100% balanced at level 1 anyway. Even if you did, it would only be until the next tree change, new skill, new unique etc..

Maybe none of this needs to be said, or is already stated, but im posting anyway.

Through out several of these manifesto threads, it appears that a tension GGG is trying to balance has to do with sustainability: bringing in and retaining new players, while not losing the hard-core base or feel of the game. So there are hard and soft core versions. No reason the soft core version cant have an optional tutorial (different manifesto thread), this friendlies up the learning curve while not drastically "dumbing down" the game. If GGG needs to rebalance a few early game issues to retain players in their first 30 minutes, im not going to argue. They have a business to run. Just dont compromise what you do well, dont compromise the spirit of the game.

If GGG is having problems with early retention, then by all means address it, especially if doing so will free you up to write more end game content in the long run. The likely reality is that the majority of potential new players dont come from hard core gaming backgrounds. There are alot of dissatisfied MMO players out there who would actually enjoy this style of play if they could find their way into it. But, atm, I'm not very willing to push the game very hard on my gaming community, not till i trust the lazy ones will find their way in. And I think thats what GGG is trying to address. So how does GGG bring those of us from other genre's into the flock? If i weren't so damn persistent, i would have left after my 5th character fail. But im stubborn and was determined to get to merc, so i kept at it. yes, i may play like an idiot in the eyes of many posters here, but even sucking, i have fun, and most important: i value that GGG offers a challenging/engaging game with a monitization model that i want to support. If it can really be sustainable i have no idea, but whatever they need to do to keep money out of winning, im all for it.

There are so many games out there that are pay to win, POE is a great find for those of us fleeing the boredom of that reality. All to say, I do see the point of GGG wanting to polish however many minutes of initial game play the marketers say are key to retaining new players. POE is a smart game and appeals to people who appreciate a challenge, but for those who dont know yet that they like to play this way, a bit of optional hand-holding in the first play through just makes good business sense. I want my stupid and/or less stubborn friends to come get hooked and spend their money here so that the dev's can give us act 4 and beyond.
If GGG isn't doing a good job of balancing the dev needs of hard core, end game, soft core, etc., AND bringing in new peeps, then that's a different issue. but bring in a sustainable player base--well, business wise, it seems they'd have to. that they are telling us about it is an interesting choice. not the move of a AAA game house, and i like that. Makes me think they actually care about the community, even snarky as so many of us are!

just be quick about this first 30 minutes of polish, GGG. the laments of veteran players echo through these threads ... they need you too.

I'm myself an ice spear build witch. You want to freeze me? I freeze you first lol. Never had problems with HailRake. I guess it helps other characters or builds.