Feedback and Suggestions (Path of Exile 1) - Why elemental damage with weapons is in a bad spot - Forum

Monster health per party member was buffed recently. I don't know why, but I guess it was to balance the damage output of physical builds. In my opinion elemental/spell based builds took a big indirect hit from this.	Posted by Mr_Mustasch#5043 on Feb 2, 2014, 7:39:46 AM Quote this Post
" Moosifer wrote: " 3) Elemental Resistance a) Give most monsters a weakness to a certain element This is something that I've always wondered why it wasn't around. Seemed to make sense to me that mobs would be strong against one and weak against another. The idea of all res just doesn't make sense at all either. " 5) Leech I've always felt that the leech passives should be all damage. There's only 2 on the tree and both for 2%. Making them all damage wouldn't be game breaking but would be enough for some builds to find a way out of being forced to use mana leech gem or EB. Mana regen alone might suck but with a supplemental 2% leech it would work. " 6) Skill Gem Scaling Ya, I've always wondered why the scaling isn't just "damage" instead of "physical damage." Probably has to do with added light, cold and chaos. I half agree here. While each of these are all one way, you propose (or don't clarify) that they should be all another way. While all another way would be more attractive overall, I feel both extremes lack much diversity. Each case should be a varying degree of either extreme, somewhere in between. Some enemies resistant to all, some (very few) resistant to none, most with a resistance to one or two and a slight weakness to another... Some sources (item mods, passives) offering elemental attack leech only, others phys only, others any attack damage... Some skill gems scaling solely with phys, by design, others either/or or both... To the last point in particular, in most cases, elemental skills already scale elemental damage via converting a portion of phys to ele, should you choose to build for it. Other skills like cleave, doublestrike, dual strike, reave, cyclone, I believe could scale just "damage" and not just phys; meanwhile other other skills like puncture, heavy strike, etc should scale phys only. Basically, phys->ele skills are already okay, anything 1h or DW themed could scale phys and ele, and anything with a strong phys or 2h theme should remain phys only (as 2h already has a strong relationship to certain phys->ele skills). Devolving Wilds Land “T, Sacrifice Devolving Wilds: Search your library for a basic land card and reveal it. Then shuffle your library.” Last edited by CanHasPants#3515 on Feb 2, 2014, 8:49:33 AM	Posted by CanHasPants#3515 on Feb 2, 2014, 8:48:43 AM Quote this Post
" Freeslana wrote: " Novalisk wrote: It's important to remember the reasoning behind the elemental damage node nerf, and to see if it's still relevant should you undo the nerf. At the time, ele-cleave was the most powerful starter build in the game, with very few viable alternatives. With Cleave being nerfed, and physical damage nodes being buffed (the 50% buff for increased phys nodes patch) and buffed again (phys damage nodes affecting non-weapon phys damage), I think it'd be fine to revert the 20% nerf to elemental damage nodes. Yes, that'd definetly be fine, but it would not be enough. There are still the resists, there is still the reflect, there is still the leech, and reverting a 20% nerf to nodes won't make up for that. We really need all skills to scale with ele dmg, a good way to penetrate resistances (a notable behind every WED cluster that would give 5, and catalysm would give 10, maybe add 1 or 2 WED clusters) AND better numbers on nodes and the WED skill gem. A small buff won't change much. Well right now you have to consider the current top dog of elemental attack builds which is the aura wander. Buffing the WED nodes is great because it won't help aura wanders that much due to diminishing returns. Last edited by Novalisk#3583 on Feb 2, 2014, 9:03:44 AM	Posted by Novalisk#3583 on Feb 2, 2014, 8:54:48 AM Quote this Post
" Novalisk wrote: " Freeslana wrote: " Novalisk wrote: It's important to remember the reasoning behind the elemental damage node nerf, and to see if it's still relevant should you undo the nerf. At the time, ele-cleave was the most powerful starter build in the game, with very few viable alternatives. With Cleave being nerfed, and physical damage nodes being buffed (the 50% buff for increased phys nodes patch) and buffed again (phys damage nodes affecting non-weapon phys damage), I think it'd be fine to revert the 20% nerf to elemental damage nodes. Yes, that'd definetly be fine, but it would not be enough. There are still the resists, there is still the reflect, there is still the leech, and reverting a 20% nerf to nodes won't make up for that. We really need all skills to scale with ele dmg, a good way to penetrate resistances (a notable behind every WED cluster that would give 5, and catalysm would give 10, maybe add 1 or 2 WED clusters) AND better numbers on nodes and the WED skill gem. A small buff won't change much. Well right now you have to consider the current top dog of elemental attack builds which is the aura wander. Buffing the WED nodes is great because it won't help aura wanders that much due to diminishing returns. If we do nothing but buff the nodes, spectral throw and power siphon will stay the only good skills. For example, all skill gems scaling all damage would help a lot while not helping the wander at all. Yeah, most of the changes will help the wanders, but some additional balance can always be done. Old april 2012 account got stolen Last edited by Freeslana#1251 on Feb 2, 2014, 9:39:18 AM	Posted by Freeslana#1251 on Feb 2, 2014, 9:37:30 AM Quote this Post
I'll go for a bump after more than two weeks, someone might have something to say. I personally would like to see at least all attack gems scaling all damage in the coming patch, not sure if I can expect more. Old april 2012 account got stolen Last edited by Freeslana#1251 on Feb 20, 2014, 1:08:21 PM	Posted by Freeslana#1251 on Feb 20, 2014, 1:08:09 PM Quote this Post
Looks like Ele leech stats are coming, in the form of corruption. Want to Fix the Economy, Bad Loot, Trade and Legacy PvP? pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/548056 Open Letter to Qarl on Crafting Value pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/805434 Biggest Problem with Mapping: Inconsistent Risk to Reward pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/612507	Posted by Veta321#3815 on Feb 20, 2014, 1:29:58 PM Quote this Post
there are so many system-wide issues: 1) attack speed. all but one item types are the best with fasters base. google 'theoretical max damage weapons' on google docs and see. slow weapons not only have lowest possible max phys dmg (Sometimes by more than 20%!) but aspd also scales flat ele dmg - so people are using fast bases (jeweled foils, siege axes, thickets) over slow weapons (everything else) - theoretical limit to aspd is mana cost. completely bypassed with BM gem (that is entire issue on its own) 2) ele resistances vs armor. phys dmg is almost never reduced by anything, while you can be sure that your target in lvl70+ map will be all-resist. this is noticeable for spells and is noticeable for attacks. wanders can simply bruteforce this issue (by wander one-shots rares in 73maps..) but this is just because of how sick crit a multipier is. - ele dps displayed is usualy 200-300%higer than real dps applied to monsters - due to resistances 2a) penetration gem. if you go seriously for ele dmg penetration gem is a very powerful gem. but there are two issues: dps does not change - naturally - and this makes for annoying guessing games, and it works for only one resistance - multi-elemental attacks are less effective than single elemental due to not being able to penetrate more resistances (realistically) 3) leech. i hate leech as it allows for all-in dps characters that substitute defences with offence. leech is the connector between sustain and dps output and i think that this should not be the case (RoS removed life leech and i love this change). but because leech is there to stay and dumb the game even more it is obvious that life leech should work for ele dmg as well - new items (corrupted) can roll ele leech (ggg screenshot) so this already is in - passive point with ele leech would be MANDATORY for all casters and this would be dumb 4) flat and % attack elemental gems. there are two types (unfortunately): flat attack gems like Explosive Arrow and % based like double strike. having both types makes them very difficult to balance with one change. because Explosive Arrow is sick powerful it seems that flat skills (Some) are ok. it is the % based attacks like cleave or glacial hammer that are in trouble - phys dmg nodes scale only phys dmg. this makes mixed weapons a 'wasted' ones. currently rolling flat ele dmg is actually a penalty because neither the gem level up nor passive tree multiplies that ele dmg - attack gems should scale entire attack. im not sure about passives, emphasis on physical dmg makes sense still. but gems should follow PS example and scale entire projectile/swing 5) braindead and broken skills. some serious look is needed into stuff like cleave, sweep etc. all these can 'work' but it is not ok when melee splash with single target is better than cleave not 'just' but by a mile. melee splash (And multistrike) did a lot of harm to diversity.. but this applies to phys/ele the same 6) status effects in a game based on .5sec encounters? they mean nothing. specialized burning builds work, shock stacks are ok, freezing is amazing (glacial hammer.. sadly it desyncs more than cyclone). but in a typical fight with typical setup these are meaningless. and ofc when that means a lot - vs bosses - even specialized builds have issues taking advantage of these effects.. 7) WED gem is OK. in fact id just remove all the braindead 'more' gems some day id like to use item like this and know that it CAN make sense to do so.. or this one:	Posted by sidtherat#1310 on Feb 20, 2014, 1:41:42 PM Quote this Post
Hi I miss the days when elemental templar was god, then they nerfed the shit out of ele nodes everywhere and made gloves and other equipment roll less ele damage:( cheers Conan: Crush your enemies. See them driven before you. Hear the lamentations of their women. Never dance with the Devil because a dance with the Devil could last you forever... -I thought what I'd do was,I'd Pretend I was one of those deaf mutes- Nullus Anxietas:)	Posted by Finkenstein#5181 on Feb 20, 2014, 1:46:27 PM Quote this Post
" sidtherat wrote: there are so many system-wide issues: 1) attack speed. all but one item types are the best with fasters base. google 'theoretical max damage weapons' on google docs and see. slow weapons not only have lowest possible max phys dmg (Sometimes by more than 20%!) but aspd also scales flat ele dmg - so people are using fast bases (jeweled foils, siege axes, thickets) over slow weapons (everything else) - theoretical limit to aspd is mana cost. completely bypassed with BM gem (that is entire issue on its own) 2) ele resistances vs armor. phys dmg is almost never reduced by anything, while you can be sure that your target in lvl70+ map will be all-resist. this is noticeable for spells and is noticeable for attacks. wanders can simply bruteforce this issue (by wander one-shots rares in 73maps..) but this is just because of how sick crit a multipier is. - ele dps displayed is usualy 200-300%higer than real dps applied to monsters - due to resistances 2a) penetration gem. if you go seriously for ele dmg penetration gem is a very powerful gem. but there are two issues: dps does not change - naturally - and this makes for annoying guessing games, and it works for only one resistance - multi-elemental attacks are less effective than single elemental due to not being able to penetrate more resistances (realistically) 3) leech. i hate leech as it allows for all-in dps characters that substitute defences with offence. leech is the connector between sustain and dps output and i think that this should not be the case (RoS removed life leech and i love this change). but because leech is there to stay and dumb the game even more it is obvious that life leech should work for ele dmg as well - new items (corrupted) can roll ele leech (ggg screenshot) so this already is in - passive point with ele leech would be MANDATORY for all casters and this would be dumb 4) flat and % attack elemental gems. there are two types (unfortunately): flat attack gems like Explosive Arrow and % based like double strike. having both types makes them very difficult to balance with one change. because Explosive Arrow is sick powerful it seems that flat skills (Some) are ok. it is the % based attacks like cleave or glacial hammer that are in trouble - phys dmg nodes scale only phys dmg. this makes mixed weapons a 'wasted' ones. currently rolling flat ele dmg is actually a penalty because neither the gem level up nor passive tree multiplies that ele dmg - attack gems should scale entire attack. im not sure about passives, emphasis on physical dmg makes sense still. but gems should follow PS example and scale entire projectile/swing 5) braindead and broken skills. some serious look is needed into stuff like cleave, sweep etc. all these can 'work' but it is not ok when melee splash with single target is better than cleave not 'just' but by a mile. melee splash (And multistrike) did a lot of harm to diversity.. but this applies to phys/ele the same 6) status effects in a game based on .5sec encounters? they mean nothing. specialized burning builds work, shock stacks are ok, freezing is amazing (glacial hammer.. sadly it desyncs more than cyclone). but in a typical fight with typical setup these are meaningless. and ofc when that means a lot - vs bosses - even specialized builds have issues taking advantage of these effects.. 7) WED gem is OK. in fact id just remove all the braindead 'more' gems some day id like to use item like this and know that it CAN make sense to do so.. or this one: I'd also love to be able to use slower bases. Right now, everything just makes attack speed stacking stronger (Auras, flat dmg on jewellery, same ele rolls/effectiveness on slow and fast weapons). I doubt GGG are changing that in this patch, though. But, there are tons of little things that would really help elemental in the meantime, such as reducing resists of monsters, notable with 10-15% ele penetration behind every WED cluster, general buff to WED nodes, penetration on arcing blows/the cold one/the fire one, making the leech NODES in the tree work for all damage types, give us elemental scaling on gems, elemental penetration suffix on jewellery, gloves and belts... There are simply so many things that could be done very easily without even changing attack speed stacking, and I really hope GGG make some of these changes. It would be a real shame if they didn't, honestly. We'll see what corruption gives us, but I'm worried it might just not be a viable option because of the drawbacks it'll get. Old april 2012 account got stolen Last edited by Freeslana#1251 on Feb 20, 2014, 2:50:12 PM	Posted by Freeslana#1251 on Feb 20, 2014, 2:47:43 PM Quote this Post
issue is that ele penetration would work for both spells and attacks. same as with leech. spells have their problems, but they are still in better situation. placing ele penetration nodes would make them MANDATORY for 75% builds as resist penetration is so HUGE to damage. i think that simply adding 1% per level to attack gems to 'all resist penetration' would make huge but not OP difference (while ofc making gems scale with all dmg not only phys) anyway, i fully (except buffing WED gem) agree with your ideas but have little to no hope	Posted by sidtherat#1310 on Feb 20, 2014, 3:16:51 PM Quote this Post