A somewhat new player's review of Path of VexOhmIstDol
" Self-found isn't a real principal because it's a style of play chosen for a subset of players in an online only multiplayer ARPG. Also stating that GGG can "easily" create a self-found league is proclaiming they have the answer to somehow make a perfect self-league but admit that they are at fault for not making the base game better. Explain to me the "ease" of creating a self-found league that isn't lazy, wouldn't require a complete re-balance of the game and another entire team to rebalance it for the self-found league every single update. Also what examples of a self-found league that wouldn't apply to the game in general? Why wouldn't getting 100% chance of a 6-link work in the normal leagues? 2000 fusings is 1000 chaos orbs or 40-60 exalts, that wouldn't affect the "economy" of the game in the slightest bit because the self-found solo players >weren't going to trade with other players anyway." and it allows people do play normally (trade sometimes, party sometimes) make a 6-link at a guaranteed cost with a massive item currency sink without the need of trading another player the item (pre made 6-link item). It's a win-win that for some reason self-found league players think that they should only get or something. Why would disabling trading do anything? Now you get to play the game without trading or a lesser form of trading, the game is EXACTLY the same compared to the base game. There is absolutely no benefit in making an extra league with the rule "you can't trade." Using the only reason of "Chris doesn't like self found league so therefore one wouldn't exist or the base game couldn't be better." is backwards reasoning because you even said it yourself and you can agree with many of my ideas to make the base game better. That they will make "self-found" players happy with AND make the game base better without requiring a self-found league. Self-found leagues would be an half-assed idea even if Chris liked it, because simply you don't need a separate league for the base game to be better. Last edited by RagnarokChu#4426 on Dec 15, 2013, 11:18:47 PM
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Honestly here's a question I have, which can be supported by data (I hope):
What proportion of players actually trade? Because sure, we here on the forums have all this trading, we have poe.xyz.is, etc. etc. etc... But say someone somewhat casual decided to pick up this game, such as, oh, Mirakat, aka the lady that did this cosplay: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/542590 Do the developers just say "tough luck"? I mean yeah, there's always a balance to strike between "do we cater completely to the casuals and bore anyone who puts in a modicum of effort" and "do we cater to the hardcore and make the game so obnoxious that the only ones still playing have to be hardcore grinders", and while Korean MMORPGs and their p2w imitators here in the U.S. work like that, I'd hope PoE isn't one of those games... That said, if the game is balanced around trading=power, then isn't buying more stash tabs p2w, that way, you can hold onto borderline good gear a bit longer while waiting for a buyer instead of vendoring it? Essentially, IMO, the way D2 struck an excellent balance was that it was balanced around self-found. You could throw 7 P topazes into a helmet/armor, get a spirit broadsword, maybe even a spirit monarch, put stone and insight on a holy freeze/defiance merc, and just run around fireballing things in the crypt or pit, and eventually, something you can use will drop. And if you were a little more savvy, you could trade for a Tal Rasha's set (since it wasn't BIS for top-tier characters), and move on from there, since Tal Rasha's had excellent clear speed and was also able to solo the entire game while having very substantial MF (especially where wartrav's, gheed's, and chanceguards were involved, though one could also use magefists). And essentially, D2 was basically: "If you're casual, there are characters you can play and you'll get to explore all the content". "If you're savvy, there are characters you can play that can clear all the content in solid to excellent fashion." "If you're hardcore, there are characters you can play that can farm even the hardest instances in solid fashion." "And if you're uber-hardcore, you can make multiple such characters." Everyone could have their own level of fun. In PoE, it's basically: "If you're casual, you're screwed." "If you're savvy, there are characters you can play that will have difficulty with quite a bit of the content." "If you're hardcore, there are characters you can play that can clear content in solid fashion." "If you're uber-hardcore, you can get maybe one character that can farm even the hardest instances in such fashion." "And if you're able to create multiple such characters? Mmm, what are you doing with your life?" Essentially, I feel that the whole philosophy of "we want players to be able to spend a long time improving one character" is out of place when the game then gets balanced around these uber characters--you know, the ones built by the Kripparians of the game, rather than allowing the Mirakats of the game to have a good time. After all, I feel most of the game's initial supporters were those who supported "ethical f2p", but then, well, the game basically cuts itself off to new blood. That's a recipe for failure IMO. |
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" Yes, and if you want your players to play that style of play, then you have an intention to design the game so achieving that style of play " Its about as easy as creating a new league, which GGG already has done many times to accomodate different styles of play. If the different leagues didnt exist for whatever reason (maybe technical) I would agree with you, but you are wrong. The style of play in races is completely different to standard league, which is completely different to hardcore league. GGG obviously does wan't to accomodate different styles of play, and they are already making leagues to cater for these different style of plays. The only reason they havn't made a self found league is because of ideological reasons, not because they can't do it. " If you make endgame items to easy to obtain, you end up inflating the economy, to the point taht players can purchase an item for little currency that is 20x more powerful than their current item, and then they just steamroll all of the content so its trivial. Thats what happened to D3 when I returned to playing it. I had a 300 DPS weapon and something like 5 mill in gold. Since the economy got so inflated, I bought a 700 DPS weapon for something as low as 200k gold, and ended up 2 shotting everything on the screen. The equivalent cost of that item when I left would have been like 100 million This is the problem in dealing with an economy, you have to account for the huge variance that happens due to economic factors like inflation or crashes. You also have problems where if you have a build enabling unique that is in high demand (shavronns), it ends up costing 20x more than it should, which is the opposite problem of the inflation. When you deal with an economy, you have to deal with reality and human behavior, which sucks, because you can't really control those things Hence, if you make your drop rates too low, then it ends up turning into a trading simulator (what we have now for end game) and it starts exhibiting the same problem that Korean MMO's x exhibit, if you make drop rates too high, then people end up being able to get a 6L 500 DPS weapon for an 10 chaos, and then end up steam rolling maps and getting bored " It solves the above problem completely. You are not going to be able to get that 500 6L DPS weapon for 10 chaos, because well, you can't trade. You either have to find it, or you have to craft it. Assuming orb rates are improved, or RNG is removed (or something along those lines), you would use your orbs to get that 500DPS weapon, which would take a lot more time than just trading it for 10 chaos, and you do that through farming and playing the game ;) " No Chris's reasoning is self contradictory, not mine, and I could easily prove this if GGG didn't remove access to the manifesto section. Chris wanted to emulate the same sought of environment as in D2 where people would mainly obtain items by playing (and he did this in direct comparison to D3). The problem is, in reality, the opposite is what has happened, and Chris's reasoning is contradictory because he doesn't understand why those games had a bartering environment, nor why those games where mainly played self found He seems to think that most players played self found because of the potential of a 1 in a million chance item of dropping thats really good, which is flat out wrong. Some people like that kind of play (the same people that play Korean MMO's), however most dont and end up getting bored of the game. This is the reason why these games had good progression http://web.archive.org/web/20130119044046/http://www.alexc.me/a-scientific-explanation-why-diablo-3-is-less-addictive-than-diablo-2/417/ And its due to have consistant drops that have upgrades Last edited by deteego#6606 on Dec 16, 2013, 1:29:27 AM
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" That answer my question, create the new league and what? Turn off trading and it's balanced? " You didn't directly answer what I was saying, I didn't mention anything what so ever about drop rates. Adding in new items/sets/new content, vendor recipes and stuff like using 2000 fusings to make a 6-link item 100% and other various changes that would improve "self-found" and general gameplay for everyone does not imbalance the economy and everyone would like. " But you don't need a self-found league to do that, also a 500 6L DPS weapon is billions of exalts that 0.01% of the population can get regrade-less of self-found or not. Do you think items like that fly into the hands of normal people who trade sometimes or something? We have a small advantage with partying and trading, you act like even half of us are rolling around in 6 links or bringer of rains or something. Also let's be honest, getting a 500 DPS weapon is like crafting/getting a chains of honor or enigma or many of the impossible to get items solo in D2. Let's not be unrealistic in our comparison here. " You can progress through the game completely like normal until Act 3 merc/maps where you get a "Gear wall" because there is absolutely no content above that. This is more of a lack of content and items and ways to find power in this game as oppose to intentional design. You cannot make a game were there's infinite amount of "regular gear upgrades." D2 is longevity because the ridiculous amount of content outside of just getting gear (gems, runewords, jewels, charms, gearing your merc, ect ect) so you can find tons of more stuff. Even if you found a kaom's heart, in D2 it would roll in a massive range so people would still aim for a high roll/perfect kaom's heart. So like I said, making a self-found league is pointless until we massively add in content and ideas that would benefit all. Let's say they remove RNG and make orb drop tons more in a self-found league which is what the changes everyone agreed too. You get to act 3 merc, you craft 10-20 of each item and it's map worthy and allows you to roll through each map steady (and you never downgrade in maps either because that's "bad rng" and people always want "progression). Okay now what? Find the ultra rare kaom's heart? Your done the game, there's nothing else to do. Last edited by RagnarokChu#4426 on Dec 16, 2013, 1:49:55 AM
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" That ontop of many other things, which can be a combination of increasing drop rates, adding entropy into orbs, adding specific league orbs (such as an orb that transfers a socket pattern from one item to another item, destroying the old item in the process), biased drops (like if you are playing a marauder, you are more likely to get maces) etc etc Not sure why you are getting so hanged up about specifics, this stuff has been mentioned in many other threads. I have answered your question like 4 times already. The new self found league would have trading removed (to some degree, if not all) plus it would have mechanics in the game to make up for the gap that was created by the removal of trading. " Yes and it would destroy the economy. You clearly either didn't read what I said, or you are being dense. If you could reliably make 6L, the market would end up getting completely saturated with 6L items which would trivialize content, especially if you have people botting. You can get an epic drop, like the new oros vengeance, farm 2k fusings, and put a 6L version of that item on the market. There is a reason why there is so much unreliable RNG in crafting, its there to protect at the economy. It however comes at a cost of hurting self found progression " You are completely missing the analogy I made. I could have changed 500 to 300 and the point would be the exact same. D3 had economy inflation, and due to that, I was able to get an item that increased my DPS by 5x which cost 5% of my current gold. This happened when D3 made self found a lot easier (due to complaints) and then market got flooded with really good stuff for very low prices Last edited by deteego#6606 on Dec 16, 2013, 1:52:24 AM
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" and apparently you think this is simple and not brand new content that the company has to completely re-balance the game around (just for ONE league) as oppose to just adding in more content to the base game that is good for eeryone? " Are you even thinking? Farming 2k fusings? You can make a 6-link way before 2000 fusings and you have a 100% chance to get it after 2k fusings, this would encourage people to USE fusings as oppose to trade it to other people because they know they will get it eventually and creating a huge currency sink and it'll be good for self-found players. It wouldn't drop the price of a 6-link or make it any more harder to get because you need 40-60 exalts worth of PURE currency + the base item AND 6 sockets to make it. Making the price....at least 40-60 exalts for a 6link. Also people bot anyway, I have no idea why would that matter. Even more so to a solo-found found player or a normal player that wants to get a 6-link but doesn't want to buy one. " The analogy doesn't apply because none of my suggestion say to "increase drop rates." Also the market is already flooded with "really good items" for low prices, do people act like entry level map gear or leveling gear is expensive to get. Last edited by RagnarokChu#4426 on Dec 16, 2013, 1:59:37 AM
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" GGG had to rebalance the new leagues entirely as well. And again, strawman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man I said its as easy as creating one of the current leagues, which is not the same thing as easy as general " I can farm 2k fusings in a a couple of weeks, a bot can probably farm it in half that time, and I only play like 4 hours a day at most (I can farm like 4 exalted in 4 hours). So if I have a 100% chance to get a 6L in 2k fusings (remember, you will most often get it less than that), I can start selling 6L's every few weeks or so So can anyone else Guess how many 6L's I am selling now? Zero So yes, it is a problem. In fact its the exact same problem that D3 had. " Your suggestions don't solve the self found problem at all, so they are useless to whats being argued Last edited by deteego#6606 on Dec 16, 2013, 2:01:28 AM
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" What current league required large amounts of special content and re-balance of the entire game? Domination: Add shrines Nemesis: Add 1 more affix to rare monsters If anything those changes are imbalanced to make it more challenging as a competition. " So when someone can get accomplished, they can farm the equivalent to 6 six link item every week (with the chance of getting a 6 link way before 2000 fusings in which you'll use the item forever and have 2k fusings every week completely unused) not including if anything else good drops or if a 6 link drops. IN THE CURRENT, game state without any change or increased drop right While being a solo-self found player after investing a number of time. Sounds about..right? Let's think about that for a moment. Also 2000 fusings is a crazy amount of fusings to get a 6-link and your more then likely to get it way before 2000. At 40-60 exalts worth of currency you can just BUY a 6-link someone found on the floor that's white and craft it a million times with exalts if you want. Just saying 100% at 2000 fusings (it's just a high end number) is just a insurance that players don't feel as though they have to buy it from someone else. It'll help solo-found players and normal players while absolutely not effecting top end players what so ever. " My suggestion to add tons of items (sets, tons lower level items), tons of way to add power outside of items to constant find upgrades or things you can use (D2), tons of more game content (end game and both for general use such as vendor recipes) Would not vastly improve self-found? Last edited by RagnarokChu#4426 on Dec 16, 2013, 2:10:14 AM
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" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum Those leagues have a lot more changes than that, including drop rates, changes to corrupted blood, things like Silverbow branch getting nerfed (that item was nerfed purely because of races, anyone with that bow would consistently win the race because of the +2 level modifier when used with something like poison arrow), jade flasks (and other flasks which don't exist in other leagues) I can keep on going " Except currently that player would spend the currency they farmed on the economy, rather than crafting an item, because many players know that you may get your 6L in 4000 or 5000 fusings. Again your ignorance is showing " Not without destroying the current economy or making no real difference, no. Unfortunately its become apparent you have no understanding of how economics work, even at a basic level. Last edited by deteego#6606 on Dec 16, 2013, 2:11:32 AM
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" You know they are made on the premises of being as part of the core game? Let me put this another way. If there was a solo-self found league, I'll have to make a domination version and a nemesis version of it as well as a legacy because I would need to apply all of the general changes across all of the game modes. The balance changes of adding/change/changing drop rates that would work in nemesis and domination that is set to the base game would have to be re-balanced and changes just for self-found league. Which in effect makes it >own game mode< " Your going to disagree that a massively high cap for 100% 6-link were you have a massively high chance of getting it way before that high cap is a bad idea, and then your going to tell me that I may be unlucky and go all the way to 4000-5000 fusings in which it'll take 2 weeks as oppose to 1. Which is pointless debate because if I had 50 exalts lying around in fusings, crafting and buying a 6-link would cost about the same, were the latter change would just encourage you to use it as oppose to buy it. " There is no argument because your going to disagree with me that adding in new content that would make the game better would destroy the economy. So the only way to fix it is to remove the economy from the game. I guess GGG should stop what they are doing right now and COMPLETELY stop adding in new content to the game because that'll destroy the economy. Last edited by RagnarokChu#4426 on Dec 16, 2013, 2:18:39 AM
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