Double Strike + Dualwield = worst combo ever?

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I don't see the problem, you hit twice but with lower DPS-weapons. Same for Leap Slam, you jump and hit twice instead of a big hit with an axe or a maul.
Where's the problem?

Do you know why cleave has been castrated? Because dealing "two small hits" in the game engine among other things...

Deals more damage than a 2H weapon.
Doubles the effect of all +Flat Damage

Nevermind that, due to certain mechanics of dual wielding, it essentially makes 1H weapon styles obsolete. Oh and since it not only does more damage than a 2H weapon (base) it also gets double +flat damage so it does WAY more damage and therefore makes 2H wepaons builds obsolete.

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Autocthon wrote:

Those don't ADD anything to the game.

It adds fun. I find that good in a 'game'.[/quote]What fun? Leap Slam exists. It would do exactly the same thing either way.

every attack in game works with dual wield by alternating, save 5. Those 5 have special rules specifically because they don't alternate. It sounds to me that your issue isn't that "there are no choices for attacks" but rather "when I dual wield I don't deal double damage".

And in that case, nothing is going to change. The system works, it makes logical sense for the most part. Dual wielding has a defined benefit, skills interact with that benefit in different and balanced ways (except cleave because AoE dual strike).

Dual Heavy Strike exists. You dual wild and use heavy strike. Dual leap slam exists you diua lwield and leap slam. We don;t need to deal double damage just because "it [in no way ever has or ever will] makes sense"

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CommodoX wrote:

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If you got both good weapons you can use dual strike

Someone didn't read the start post, great.

Nice quote there cut of second part of sentence let me quote myself

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If you got both good weapons you can use dual strike to hit both weapons or frenzy to alternate between weapons.

And no you don't need flicker strike with frenzy.

You got attacks that do all what you can desire for DW :
-strike with only MH - double strike .
-both weapons at once - dual strike.
-Alternate weapons - frenzy and others.
-Doth weapons aoe - cleave
-alternate weapon aoe - reave
-Mainhand weapon aoe - ground slam


There are weapon restrictions there and differences in how you itematize them. Not every build you think of (for whatever RP or lol reasons) will work . Got good idea suggest it they add new skill gems all the time.

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Stt3r0 wrote:

You got attacks that do all what you can desire for DW :
-strike with only MH - double strike .
-both weapons at once - dual strike.
-Alternate weapons - frenzy and others.
-Doth weapons aoe - cleave
-alternate weapon aoe - reave
-Mainhand weapon aoe - ground slam

Because Ground Slam and Cleave work with Daggers, interesting.
Frenzy+others are only 2 skills: Cyclone and Frenzy (dex-only skills because Shadow or Ranger as I said). DEX ONLY.

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Autocthon wrote:

Do you know why cleave has been castrated?

Y, nerfed to death.

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Autocthon wrote:

Because dealing "two small hits" in the game engine among other things...

Deals more damage than a 2H weapon.
Doubles the effect of all +Flat Damage

Then the skill gem could have the addition "40% less damage while Dualwielding" or so. There are easy ways to balance around the +flat damage problem instead of making a skill unusable like Cleave (nobody plays with Cleave anymore).

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CommodoX wrote:

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dudiobugtron wrote:

If you want to alternate weapons and don't mind desync, try Reave! It is the only AoE attack skill with 100% damage effectiveness.

No I don't want to alternate weapons and Reave is the same like Dual Strike, both weapons at once. I already have a Claw-Reaver-Shadow (and the damage is shit without items worth 10 exalts).

Reave does not hit with both weapons at the same time, it strikes with each weapon one at a time. Mark_GGG already posted in this thread saying that. I don't even have a reave character and I know this.

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CommodoX wrote:

I want a skill that strikes with each weapon separatly. With daggers. A dex-based skill. Without Frenzy because that leads to Flickerstrike-builds.

But, you just said you don't want to alternate weapons! And now you're saying you do!

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You can understand why it's hard for people to give you useful suggestions, when you don't seem to understand the mechanics, refuse to believe people when they try to help, and get angry when people aren't understanding your contradictory claims.

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CommodoX wrote:

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Autocthon wrote:

Because dealing "two small hits" in the game engine among other things...

Deals more damage than a 2H weapon.
Doubles the effect of all +Flat Damage

Then the skill gem could have the addition "40% less damage while Dualwielding" or so. There are easy ways to balance around the +flat damage problem instead of making a skill unusable like Cleave (nobody plays with Cleave anymore).

They tried that on cleave. It was still superior to ALL OTHER OPTION for the majority of the game.

Pretty sure the current problem with cleave is a bit of bugginess (uses both damage effectivenesses when it should only be using 1). You do understand that dual wielding as a prerequisite for skill use is considered a DRAWBACK right? And not a bonus.

Essentially, any way you "try to make it work" either dual wielding eclipses all other options (Dual Strike damage output / pre 1.0.0 cleave) or dual wield is a penalty to playstyle (general thinking regarding a shield vs and off hand vs a 2H). There's no middleground, and games have tried for YEARS to find one.

As it is, dual wielding is well balanced with 1H and 2H playstyles. Anything that works for one will work for the others. If you want to alternate weapons THERE ARE TWO OPTIONS available in dex, aside from desynclone. They are both viable. Dual wield is fine.

Just use double strike and a tiny bit of imagination. You only need to know the mechanics for the building/planning.

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dudiobugtron wrote:

Reave does not hit with both weapons at the same time, it strikes with each weapon one at a time.

You're right, I've read it wrong in a Dualwielding-thread.

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Autocthon wrote:

They tried that on cleave. It was still superior to ALL OTHER OPTION for the majority of the game.

Then they fucked that up. No reason to nerf Cleave to hell.

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Autocthon wrote:

There's no middleground, and games have tried for YEARS to find one.

Uhhm, I could dualwield in Diablo 2 with Barb and Assasin without problems and there were no balance problems with that.

But I don't expect any balance things from GGG anymore since they fucked up Cleave. Or didn't do anything with Viper Strike for 2 years. Or Whirling Blades.

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Hazard001 wrote:

Just use double strike and a tiny bit of imagination. You only need to know the mechanics for the building/planning.

If you give me a Bringer of the Rain in Domination League, no problem.

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CommodoX wrote:

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Autocthon wrote:

There's no middleground, and games have tried for YEARS to find one.

Uhhm, I could dualwield in Diablo 2 with Barb and Assasin without problems and there were no balance problems with that.

But I don't expect any balance things from GGG anymore since they fucked up Cleave. Or didn't do anything with Viper Strike for 2 years. Or Whirling Blades.

I just... Did you even PLAY D2? The DW mechanics in DW are EXACTLY the same as they are in PoE... but for some reason in D2 they're "no problems" but in PoE they suck?

Hell in D2 you didn't even get a damage bonus. There was one skill that used both your weapons at once (for each class involved) and otherwise you were giving up a shield for no mechanical benefit.

But yah. PoE dual wielding is so broken and makes no sense. D2 was so much better. /sarcasm

Also... FFS DUAL WIELD IS FINE YOU DO NOT NEED BRINGER OF RAIN OR DUAL STRIKE TO DO WELL WITH IT STOP ARGUING FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT

I have concluded commodox is a troll, let's just leave him to stew in his trolly juices guys.

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Autocthon wrote:

I just... Did you even PLAY D2?

10 years since release. And D1 before.

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Autocthon wrote:

The DW mechanics in DW are EXACTLY the same as they are in PoE... but for some reason in D2 they're "no problems" but in PoE they suck?

Because PoE has no DW skills but Dual Strike.

And having 2 weapons didn't mean that some shit was OP and got nerfed to death instead of balancing it like it happend to Cleave.
i would easily run a 2claw-Assasin or a claw+shied Assasin or 2h barb or 1h+shield barb or 2x1h barb
It DEPENDED ON MY PLAYSTYLE. One variation was not OP and the rest was shit, you could play selffound hardcore and kick Diablos/Baals ass whatever variation you took. I did it.

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Also... FFS DUAL WIELD IS FINE YOU DO NOT NEED BRINGER OF RAIN OR DUAL STRIKE TO DO WELL WITH IT STOP ARGUING FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT

Soloing maps with a 5L chest armor and no Bringer of the Rain and 15-20k DPS?

I double strike with a dual wield crit dagger ranger, its fantastic.

Started dual daggers, thinking dual strike, twin terrors etc. Dual strike just 1 shots you on phys reflect, so switching from having dual strike plash to double strike splash with dual strike as a single target. Got a 6 link chest for that char, now double strike splash is getting a lot closer to dual strikes damage, while being aoe and reflect safe, just no need really for dual strike as a single target, dropped it.

So now its double strike splash with dual wield, I get the dw passives that are op, and I get an offhand dagger slot that doesnt effect my damage, so weve gone from




to




which covers my lightning res, gives me 80% global crit, gives me 4% life leech which means I need no leech elsewhere, no leech gems, none on jewellery etc, which frees me up to get even more damage in those spots. If you made double strike alternate it would be dogshit, cause then Id have to use 2 equally strong daggers to do the same damage, Id lose the ability to use the offhand as a stat stick. That offhand is just a bit of crap I grabbed that had 2 stats I needed, if I were to craft one I could get some really op shit from an offhand with the current mechanics of doublestrike.

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CommodoX wrote:

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Autocthon wrote:

Also... FFS DUAL WIELD IS FINE YOU DO NOT NEED BRINGER OF RAIN OR DUAL STRIKE TO DO WELL WITH IT STOP ARGUING FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT

Soloing maps with a 5L chest armor and no Bringer of the Rain and 15-20k DPS?

yep, that is more than possible with pretty average daggers like the ones I posted above.