Avatar of fire, added fire gem, Chernobogs questions

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KaTet wrote:

Right, but from the wiki, its says physical damage dealt. You deal ZERO physical damage, so either the wiki is wrong (since this is a new node, its highly possible) or Added Fire damage does not work with avatar of fire. Regardless, I think there are better option than added fire damage.

You don't have to go far to check these things. We have had infernal blow forever now. Infernal blow converts 50% dmg to fire, and infernal blow works with added fire just fine, not only that but it has a 125% dmg effectiveness, so 125% physical is supported by added fire and only then 50% is converted into fire dmg.

With avatar of fire + say infernal blow + added fire dmg you will deal 162% of your base physical dmg as fire dmg.

Interesting idea. I won't lie, I felt all warm and fuzzy when I saw a thread with that item in the title :)

Damage conversion is additive.

http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Damage_conversion

Chernobog's + Avatar of Fire gives you 75% phys -> fire.

EDIT: If you use Hrimsorrow (25% phys -> cold) and a level 6 or above Cold to Fire gem (50%+ cold -> fire) you will have 100% phys -> fire conversion.

That's not true. Converted damage from a single source cant go above 100%, so what you'd have is 75% of your physical damage converted to fire damage, then 25% converted to cold damage. Cold to fire would then convert X% of that 25% to fire, and then avatar of fire would have it's way with the left over cold damage.


If someone could confirm please...

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BRavich wrote:

That's not true. Converted damage from a single source cant go above 100%,

The situation I proposed doesn't go above 100%, it meets 100%. Moreover, conversion over 100% is scaled to fit 100%. Did you read the wiki article I linked? In any case, your "that's not true" is not true. Sorry if I'm using language that makes me sound like an asshole, I just prefer hyperliteral and extremely clear explanations so that it's impossible for a newbie to receive wrong information.

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so what you'd have is 75% of your physical damage converted to fire damage, then 25% converted to cold damage. Cold to fire would then convert X% of that 25% to fire, and then avatar of fire would have it's way with the left over cold damage.

Why would cold to fire conversion behave differently from physical to fire damage? GGG devs pride themselves on consistency of mechanics.

In other words, why would cold to fire be multiplicative rather than additive, when ALL conversion so far has been additive with same source? Why would Avatar of Fire apply separately from Cold to Fire when all conversion so far has been (X to Y) + (X to Z) = (X+X) conversion?

Here's proof of my comment using rules established by precedent (seriously, check the wiki link):
50% physical -> fire (AoF)
25% physical -> fire (Chernobog)
25% physical -> cold (Hrimsorrow)
= 75% phys -> fire, 25% phys -> cold

50% cold -> fire (AoF)
50% cold -> fire (Cold to Fire gem lv. 6+)
= 100% cold -> fire

75% phys -> fire and 25% cold -> fire -> phys.
75% + 25%
= 100% phys -> fire.

In other words, if you like algebraic math terms, what we just applied was transitivity.

Mark can confirm or deny, but I see no reason for cold to fire conversion to behave differently from literally all other conversion we've seen so far.

EDIT: ALTERNATIVELY you could use Glacial Hammer instead of a Cold to Fire gem, which frees up a support slot. (To prove, just replace the "Cold to Fire gem lv. 6+" with "Glacial Hammer gem") (EDIT4: Nevermind, I got confused. Glacial Hammer has no cold to fire conversion, silly me. Only Cold to Fire works in the calculation above).

EDIT2: FIXED some IMPORTANT mistakes (typos) I made originally.

I think he misunderstood your logic. Either way, adghar is correct. You would convert (25% + 50%) physical to fire, and (25%) physical to cold

Currently:
75 fire
25 cold

Then you convert (50% [AoF] + >50% [CtF]) cold damage to fire, with a maximum percent of 100%.

Currently:
75 fire (old)
25 fire (new)

Leaving you dealing only fire damage.

I'm running Avatar of Fire with Infernal Blow which converts 100% of my physical to fire damage and I can confirm that the support Added Fire Damage does work. Though Weapon Elemental Damage support is by far the best one to use imo.

I also look forward to getting a Chernobog soon so I can try Avatar of Fire with some other skills as I am hoping it will let me use 75% of my physical damage so I'm not stuck using just Infernal Blow.

I might also consider using Hrimsorrow to get another 12.5% of my physical damage to fire (half of the 25% phys to cold). But I don't think it's worth using cold to fire to get the last 12.5%.

Also I'm not sure Glacial Hammer would work that well as the skill would convert half the physical damage to cold before Chernobog could convert anything Right? So Avatar of Fire + Glacial hammer is just 75% of your physical to fire (by the end of it). You need the Cold to Fire Support gem to get all of your physical damage converted to fire. In the end even IF you use cold to fire with glacial hammer I see no use to it over infernal blow. Your not going to chill or freeze anything as avatar of fire and in the end you get 100% of your physical to fire with both skills and they are both 125% of your base damage. However infernal blow does not require cold to fire.

Oh, I see now. My mistake. I wasnt viewing the avatar of fire effect on cold damage as a simple conversion for some reason.

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Lionguild wrote:

Also I'm not sure Glacial Hammer would work that well as the skill would convert half the physical damage to cold before Chernobog could convert anything Right? So Avatar of Fire + Glacial hammer is just 75% of your physical to fire (by the end of it). You need the Cold to Fire Support gem to get all of your physical damage converted to fire. In the end even IF you use cold to fire with glacial hammer I see no use to it over infernal blow. Your not going to chill or freeze anything as avatar of fire and in the end you get 100% of your physical to fire with both skills and they are both 125% of your base damage. However infernal blow does not require cold to fire.

Hrimsorrow brings it to 100%.

Infernal Blow is a good skill, but you don't need Chernobog's to convert 100% with AoF IB. You just need AoF and IB. So that's kind of besides the point of this thread. Kind of.

Some people like to do skills differently to be different. Hipster builders, like me. I want to try Glacial Hammer Chernobog's Hrimsorrow AoF just because.

Also the ability to stack cold damage MIGHT make the single-target DPS higher? I have no idea. Don't ask me. I'm bad at theorycraft.

If you use Glacial Hammer you are already converting 100% of your physical damage. The skill gem works BEFORE avatar of fire so it would go.

Nothing = 100% physical
Glacial Hammer = 50% physical / 50% cold
Glacial Hammer + Avatar of Fire = 50% fire / 50% cold (all physical damage is converted) THEN 50% of that cold damage is converted from cold to fire.

Hence why Glacial Hammer without the Cold to Fire support gem is only 75% of physical to fire. Hrimsorrow would not change this. I also never said Chernobog was needed for infernal blow, only that I would use it if I wanted to use something other then infernal blow (maybe ground slam).

Hrimsorrow on the other hand COULD be used if I wanted to use said Ground Slam. like I mentioned in my previous post it would convert that last 25% of my physical to cold (after avatar of fire + chernobogs), then half of that cold would get converted back to fire, for a grand total of 87.5% physical to fire.