LESS vs REDUCED

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battled wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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enigma1406 wrote:

Why would the passive that is only accessible via blood magic be inferior?

"Less" is inferior to "reduced," but 30 is superior to 16... which is the greatest amount of reduction you can get out of any aura cluster on the tree. Also, the Mortal Conviction "cluster" is just one passive, which means you save on points.

Nevertheless, I think that Mortal Conviction should be changed to 40% less; it is a little weak. I do not think it should be changed to 50% less, or any number higher than 50.

The 30% less mana reserved becomes weaker as more reduced passives you get.

That's the whole point. Mortal Convinction isn't there to enable aura-stacking builds (which are possible if you collect all of the various aura clusters); it's there so that players who want to run one aura aren't fucked over for taking Blood Magic. Thus we want to use a "less" to give the maximum benefit to the non-stacker, and we want the biggest number possible of "less" we can throw at it without breaking the game by making the stackers stronger.

As soon as you hit 50% less for MC (actually 49%), the mathematical balance for theorycrafting shifts so that taking MC is beneficial for a devoted aura-stacking build. "Less" isn't as good as "reduced," but 50 is a lot bigger than 10, so it's now worth it to travel down because it allows you freer gear requirements (namely, no longer needing to wear Alpha's Howl — when you're reserving over 70% of your life and depending on ES and Shavronne's). That's why 50% is too much; we don't want aura-stacking builds making the trek down to MC and being better off as a result.

I guess in theory 48% less would be okay, but I like numbers divisible by 10, so I say 40.

It would be nice if all the reduced reservation sources were converted to less reservation. Personal opinion.

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Sachiru wrote:

Everything in this post is wrong

Original*(Summation of reductions)*(Product of less modifiers)

For an aura:

60% * (Summation of mana reservation reduction)*(0.7 from blood magic)*(Reduced mana gem coefficient)

Yes less modiferes are less powerful at reducing mana than more modifiers are at increasing. But that's intended.

i dont even know what the point of this thread is anymore

"why is there an inferior node behind the bm keystone"

like wtf does this even mean. it is a node that reduces the cost of auras, and that is exactly the point of it. do you want like a huge reduce node there so you can get your aura cost below 0% and get free mana from casting auras?

wtf

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fsg wrote:

i dont even know what the point of this thread is anymore

"why is there an inferior node behind the bm keystone"

like wtf does this even mean. it is a node that reduces the cost of auras, and that is exactly the point of it. do you want like a huge reduce node there so you can get your aura cost below 0% and get free mana from casting auras?

wtf

Initially it was someone asking for verification on his calculations.
Most of us here agree on the mathematical calculation, and as well that it does seem a little weak, however the way we would modify it varies, but no problem there.

You are clearly just using hyperbole and not contributing to the thread, no one is asking for 0% cost or free auras.

If you would actually read the posts, using quite a few passive reduction nodes, the notable as well as reduced mana gem, the most people have gotten a BM aura down to is approximately 20%. And if you would read my earlier post, people just dont like reserving 20% of hp on 1 aura (which also thus realisitically is going to be a defensive aura). This is even regardless of what we were able to do in the past (3 flat auras taking 10% hp). Some characters who spec into hybrid life/ES can mitigate this somewhat, others not so much at all.

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Silverthorn90 wrote:

Initially it was someone asking for verification on his calculations.
Most of us here agree on the mathematical calculation, and as well that it does seem a little weak, however the way we would modify it varies, but no problem there.

You are clearly just using hyperbole and not contributing to the thread, no one is asking for 0% cost or free auras.

If you would actually read the posts, using quite a few passive reduction nodes, the notable as well as reduced mana gem, the most people have gotten a BM aura down to is approximately 20%. And if you would read my earlier post, people just dont like reserving 20% of hp on 1 aura (which also thus realisitically is going to be a defensive aura). This is even regardless of what we were able to do in the past (3 flat auras taking 10% hp). Some characters who spec into hybrid life/ES can mitigate this somewhat, others not so much at all.

ok yeah, im drunk and emotional, i apologize

and yeah the 30% reduced mana node behind the BM keystone is kinda weak, but it has nothing to do with the node being of the "less" kind. a huge reduce node there would be unbalanced as it would synergize too well with the rest of the reduce nodes in the tree (cba to go through the math but anyone with basic understanding of numbers know what i mean).

putting reduced cost nodes in the tree at all is a huge balance game

i didnt read any posts about the actual math, as ive done it myself before and i trust myself more than random poe forum posters when it comes to algebra

Something people who want to use BM aren't taking into account is that HP was buffed across the board by a great deal, and that 20% (even 30%) life reservation still puts them at MORE hp than before patch with only "10%" used up.

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fsg wrote:

ok yeah, im drunk and emotional, i apologize

and yeah the 30% reduced mana node behind the BM keystone is kinda weak, but it has nothing to do with the node being of the "less" kind. a huge reduce node there would be unbalanced as it would synergize too well with the rest of the reduce nodes in the tree (cba to go through the math but anyone with basic understanding of numbers know what i mean).

putting reduced cost nodes in the tree at all is a huge balance game

i didnt read any posts about the actual math, as ive done it myself before and i trust myself more than random poe forum posters when it comes to algebra

First of all it's less, not reduced. Second, the point was that IF IT WAS reduced it would be more powerful. And third, as others have brought up, for most players 20% reserved life for one aura is quite a bit even with the increase to life nodes.

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Autocthon wrote:

Something people who want to use BM aren't taking into account is that HP was buffed across the board by a great deal, and that 20% (even 30%) life reservation still puts them at MORE hp than before patch with only "10%" used up.

Right, but that's for ONE aura, not three. While that one aura may have been buffed (not all were) it's not going to make up for the other two lost.

You can easily run three auras off of mana (as long as one is purity at 40%) with just the Sovereignty cluster so, in the end, I believe it's better to use a BM gem for skills and mana for auras than it is to get the BM passive. That way I fully benefit from the life buff AND get the extra damage and survivability of three auras which make up for the lost slots to BM gem.

I now have 3 characters set up that way for that very reason (IB facebreaker marauder, ele cleave templar, ROA ranger). I would love to have at least one if not all of them use the BM passive if it made sense.

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enigma1406 wrote:

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Autocthon wrote:

Something people who want to use BM aren't taking into account is that HP was buffed across the board by a great deal, and that 20% (even 30%) life reservation still puts them at MORE hp than before patch with only "10%" used up.

Right, but that's for ONE aura, not three. While that one aura may have been buffed (not all were) it's not going to make up for the other two lost.

You can easily run three auras off of mana (as long as one is purity at 40%) with just the Sovereignty cluster so, in the end, I believe it's better to use a BM gem for skills and mana for auras than it is to get the BM passive. That way I fully benefit from the life buff AND get the extra damage and survivability of three auras which make up for the lost slots to BM gem.

I now have 3 characters set up that way for that very reason (IB facebreaker marauder, ele cleave templar, ROA ranger). I would love to have at least one if not all of them use the BM passive if it made sense.

Previously BM builds had 3 flat auras, wehre non-BM were running 5-7 whatever auras.

Now BM can safely get 1 Aura, while non-BM can run 2-3 (ish) depending on how much they are committing to running the auras. Also remove purity, bad aura is bad. Aside over. BM can run a 60% aura and purity if they like for a total 30-40% life, which makes them *just* a bit squishier than before patch without having made any enemies harder.

And remember the scaling on gem slots. That non-BM node user is trading a gem slot for another aura and defenses, the BM user is trading life for more damage (and more sockets overall). How fair that trade is can be debated, but auras should NOT be a non-issue for a build that has no resource management AND full slots (other builds get one or the other, not both).