Survival Bonus?

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raics wrote:

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wicca369 wrote:

:D
It would be really awesome. I'm glad to see someone else here who also liked that game, most of my friends despised it because of its bugs. I looked at it as a chance to work around it, and somehow make a non viable build viable. That's where i had a lot of fun with S2. :)
But you had a lot of fun stacking MF and EXP enhancement. This idea seems to satisfy both our needs quite well. :)

I also loved the game, official and community patches mostly fixed it so it can be played without much hassle now. It was the first to implement some systems copied later by others, stuff like active skill mods. Probably wasn't very popular due to an unusual resource management, instead of fighting with mana you fought with cooldowns. It was pretty counterintuitive as the first thing a novice player will do is read many combat art runes and that's something you just can't do until much, much later so all your builds were kinda of latebloomers. You did get powerful eventually but it took a while.

Survival bonus would be fine in PoE if the beginning stages went up fast enough so a couple of map runs could get you up to 20-30% IIQ and XP bonus, and a ten runs or so could have you back in 50-ish. From there it would get really slow up to 100% so HC character and builds that do not die much wouldn't get that much more gear and XP.

Well, if you die too much you won't be able to progress anyway, so for such builds it's already back to the drawing board. I support this working in HC too as you might as well get some reward for the hassle, some say the thrill is the reward, but playing HC you build in such a way that you do not get many thrills except an occasional scare or two, you know you managed to make a great HC char if your build is boring.

He he Someones logged some sacred 2 time :)
I love the system and will bump the thread every so often, hopefully more people read it so they can at least tell me no.
It seems (i'm assuming) the Devs got a lot of their ideas from sacred, or games like it. I think it was one of the first games with heavy skill modifications that really changed how you could play a character. I feel the skill system with all of the different "support" gems act exactly like a modification. But maybe with a little final fantasy thrown in there too.

This part is pretty off topic, but i remember the community from that game. They were awesome. They were awesome to the point where they would dig thru data bases of non nonsensical information just to find out whether a modification was actually changing what it said.
THAT'S how into this game people were. A big part of that was due to:

1) the skill modification system (POE already has this feature, implemented differently ofc)

2)THE LOOT. (good because farming was more interesting, and had a very long sense of achievement / disappointment if you managed to keep your survival bonus up or if you had to leave the room only to find your character face first in the dirt. You could always keep grinding to get that bonus back up, though). ;)

3)The lack of good information provided by the actual game. Most awesome builds came from a complete lack of knowledge about game mechanics. This led a lot of people to ask others, and this in turn created a community. A really good one i might add. I wouldn't have been able to figure out some of that code by myself, and the longevity of the game was increased quite a bit.

At least those are some of the things that kept me playing. Everyone will have a different reason, its the type of game sacred 2 is. I think that form of "player loyalty" is what POE is aiming for too, or could at least benefit from a few die hard fans that get really into the character customization and build planning process.

Daily Bump

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wicca369 wrote:

He he Someones logged some sacred 2 time :)
I love the system and will bump the thread every so often, hopefully more people read it so they can at least tell me no.
It seems (i'm assuming) the Devs got a lot of their ideas from sacred, or games like it. I think it was one of the first games with heavy skill modifications that really changed how you could play a character. I feel the skill system with all of the different "support" gems act exactly like a modification. But maybe with a little final fantasy thrown in there too.

At least those are some of the things that kept me playing. Everyone will have a different reason, its the type of game sacred 2 is. I think that form of "player loyalty" is what POE is aiming for too, or could at least benefit from a few die hard fans that get really into the character customization and build planning process.

Of course, into first Sacred too :)

The community was really tightly knit, those that played HC especially so, sharing info that mostly came from personal testing and donating gear to each other to get back on their feet when their char died.

It's really a bummer the games weren't more popular, they were really special with a big, open world and an unusual combat system. I they only were a bit more intuitive and user-friendly (and bug-free) they would no doubt gather a huge following, this way Sacred had never risen beyond its cult status.

Too bad Sacred 3 won't even be an action RPG in the proper sense, I smell another Dungeon Siege 3 coming.

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raics wrote:

Survival bonus would be fine in PoE if the beginning stages went up fast enough so a couple of map runs could get you up to 20-30% IIQ and XP bonus, and a ten runs or so could have you back in 50-ish. From there it would get really slow up to 100% so HC character and builds that do not die much wouldn't get that much more gear and XP.

I agree with this. I also think that the monster levels shouldn't go too high. Plus 5 levels tops, one for each 20 percent of SB gained... or something like that.

Poes already a hard game, though Nobi is harder than merciless IMO. :P

Edit: on a side note, that could be really beneficial. Turn your 68 maps into 73 maps. And it wasn't a hand-out, you earned it through playing well. Gives more incentive to not die or zerg through areas/ bosses.
You still could of course, because you could get your survival bonus back up to around 50 percent pretty quickly, as raics suggested.

I like the overall idea, Wicca, but let me say this:

- Increased stats and stronger monsters are not needed.
You get increased stats by leveling up.
You get stronger monsters by... going to stronger areas.
- Increased IIQ and/or IIR is a cool idea, but this would need to be carefully implemented.

There is already a heavy focus on ultra defensive builds - mostly remote damage builds like totems and minions.

Melee characters have to play alot more defensively, and usually kill slower because of that.

This might end up making players gravitate even more towards defensive and ranged builds.

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Nurvus wrote:

I like the overall idea, Wicca, but let me say this:

- Increased stats and stronger monsters are not needed.
You get increased stats by leveling up.
You get stronger monsters by... going to stronger areas.
- Increased IIQ and/or IIR is a cool idea, but this would need to be carefully implemented.

There is already a heavy focus on ultra defensive builds - mostly remote damage builds like totems and minions.

Melee characters have to play alot more defensively, and usually kill slower because of that.

This might end up making players gravitate even more towards defensive and ranged builds.

That's a really good point. The increased stats was the part that i was most unsure of. It would really require a lot of thought because it would have to be customized to POE completely.

The stats are mostly there to help balance the increased monster levels. IMO raising stats shouldn't be a part of it, but the idea of "a" survival bonus would be nifty. However its implemented.

The monsters would have to scale carefully. Its not the point to make it more challenging, but to give better rewards for playing an already challenging game. I don't know about you personally, but don't a lot of people end up farming areas anyways? Also, maps. I mean how much frustration has been had over a couple monster levels?

About melee, i put in a few points in my op, but i see where you're coming from. The thing is though, is that melees already at a disadvantage here. No matter what, melee will have to play more defensibly, unless there's a pretty big change to monster abilities. Since they cant stack much MF anyways, being so dependent on their defenses, this might actually help them.

Let them gravitate towards whatever they prefer playing. The point is that they're both viable in terms of loot gathering. Also, with less magic find modifies going on gear, you may find yourself a bit more tanky.

Thanks for the feed back :)

Bump

Bump

Why am I suddenly having flashbacks to Diablo 3? Oh yeah, that 4 stack nephalem thing.... Look, the thing is, this is a different game. Except for the increased stats, the bonuses you mentioned are already substantially buffed from party play. In addition, the affixes on end-game maps is meant to fill that role of providing more challenging experiences with greater rewards. The only substantial benefit I see from such a buff is with solo play, but that just points to a need for game rebalancing, not a temporary buff.

The problem of a temporary buff, such as the nephalem stacks in Diablo 3, is that it favors those who can play for an extended time, to the exclusion of those unable to make such an extended time commitment. This isn't much of a problem in Diablo 3 due to the relative ease of getting such stacks, but due to the wide variability of difficulty based on RNG and the wide variety of builds in PoE, such a system would not work so well here, leading to the aforementioned problems, as well as providing incentive to not be challenged, to further emphasize op builds, and leading to even more exclusionary party roles.

The problem of a longer term, more time-intensive temporary buff, such as what you are referencing, is that it's a much bigger loss when you die--especially for people who can't play the game that often--and will further reward already skilled players and op builds. And that's in a standard league. As pointed out, it's completely pointless in hardcore, as it's essentially a leveling bonus.

So all in all, a temporary buff of this nature would only be detrimental in PoE, incentivizing less challenging gameplay, leading to even less build variety, and, in fact, punishing players for experimenting. The only possible use I can see for this is to put it in a hardcore, four-month league as a way of testing out a different leveling bonus system, with the aim of potentially rebalancing the game, yet again. I have trouble seeing this being used in races, as an overriding buff/debuff would most likely be better, as opposed to a level dependent buff/debuff.

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Athari8178 wrote:

The problem of a temporary buff, such as the nephalem stacks in Diablo 3, is that it favors those who can play for an extended time, to the exclusion of those unable to make such an extended time commitment. This isn't much of a problem in Diablo 3 due to the relative ease of getting such stacks, but due to the wide variability of difficulty based on RNG and the wide variety of builds in PoE, such a system would not work so well here, leading to the aforementioned problems, as well as providing incentive to not be challenged, to further emphasize op builds, and leading to even more exclusionary party roles.

The problem of a longer term, more time-intensive temporary buff, such as what you are referencing, is that it's a much bigger loss when you die--especially for people who can't play the game that often--and will further reward already skilled players and op builds. And that's in a standard league. As pointed out, it's completely pointless in hardcore, as it's essentially a leveling bonus.

So all in all, a temporary buff of this nature would only be detrimental in PoE, incentivizing less challenging gameplay, leading to even less build variety, and, in fact, punishing players for experimenting. The only possible use I can see for this is to put it in a hardcore, four-month league as a way of testing out a different leveling bonus system, with the aim of potentially rebalancing the game, yet again. I have trouble seeing this being used in races, as an overriding buff/debuff would most likely be better, as opposed to a level dependent buff/debuff.

This system has absolutely nothing to do with that nephalem thingy, ever played Sacred at all? It's not even a temporary buff, for HC players it's as permanent as it gets. And yes, it is a benefit to play HC but it's certainly not required, just don't die in SC and there you have it.

Another advantage of it is it doesn't favor those that play more, anyone can learn to play better but those that have no time to play usually can't get more time. And we already have a system that discourages dying a lot, XP penalty stops your progress if you die too much so you're pretty much screwed either way. However, XP penalty does nothing for zerging through content with empty XP bar, this one would put the spoke in that wheel too.

This system would fit PoE like a glove, if properly implemented probably even better then it does Sacred. And properly implementing it would mean MF rebalance which is planned either way, as I understand it.