Some Hybrid Gear Theorycrafting (wall of text + spreadsheet)

Hey guys, as someone who's been crafting a lot lately, something bugged me a lot about hybrid gear : there is absolutely no incencitive to look for them!

As a Shadow, I focused on ES+EVA items, but I believe the same thing goes for EVA+Armor or ES+Armor gear.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I've put some numbers into a spredsheet and realized that people who want ES + Evasion (for example) should NEVER opt for a Carnal Armor + Murder Mask combo and should rather go for either a Vaal Regalia (ES) + Jungle Hood combo (EVA) or an Exquisite Leather (EVA) + Ezomyte Circlet (ES) combo.

Assuming 100% perfect rolls, there are actually a few hybrid combos that are on par with the previously mentionned one, but those are also the one that are among the WORST if crafted with only 2 high mods.

The average efficiency value for an hybrid gear combo is about 80-85% compared to their "pure" ES+EVA combo counterparts. That value stays the same, be it for a 3 mods roll or a 2 mods roll.

The funny thing is that I mentionned earlier that there are a few hybrid combos that are on par with the "pure" combos. Well, if rolled with only 2 mods, these combos drop from a 100% efficiency value to about a 60-65% efficiency value, making them absolutely worthless to be sought for, crafting wise.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Link to the spreadsheet from which my statements are based on :

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ag8KFdFMYal5dHp2MHN6SVNacFVDaHBFejFpcEI3Tmc#gid=0

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I've put in only perfect rolls, not counting any %quality.

What I'm calling "relative efficiency" is the average ratio of EVA/ES compared to the possibles "pure" EVA+ES combos.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Why did I also considered 2 max mods only? Because after spending about 200 gcp worth of orbs into crafting, I realized that 3 high prefixes on an item is absolutely unlikely to obtain.
The current highest ES armor on the default league is owned by Invalesco, has already been mirrored one time and has only 2 ES mods.

In the bottom of the spreadsheet, I wrote down any possible hybrid combo, only considering the best base value gears, which means Carnal Armor, Sadist's Garb, Blood Raiment, Murder Mask and Pagan Mask.

What comes to mind quickly is that the combos that have a good efficiency value are the "(2)+(2)" combos (the balanced ones), and require a +ES mod, a +EVA mod, and a +100% hybrid factor mod.

If you were to obtain only 2 mods on those, no matter which one, the relative effiency value become so bad that these balanced combos are absolutely worthless.
This is the reason that I've put those values in red.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Why do I consider this an issue?

- The incencitive for hybrid classes to wear hybrid gear lead them to actually have a way sub-optimal equipment

- Crafting wise, it is a LOT easier and LESS expensive to craft one pure ES or EVA chest then craft the opposite defensive stat on a helm, assuming you're following the alt^x > regal > exalt method.

- It may be an indirect reason of why hybrid classes arent as popular as "pure" classes.

- The fact that I simply want to be able to wear hybrid gear like I should and get a benefit from it!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ways to fix this :

1) Allow Hybrid Gear to roll 4 prefixes as this is in theory the way for them to be at least as efficient if not slightly better than their "pure" counterparts. Not the best option though, it would get rid of the philosophy behind the limitation of 3 prefixes.

2) Buff the base values of hybrids gear.

3) Bump the Evanescent prefixe range to 150% : same effect as allowing 4 prefixes. To go more in depths, it puts any combinations besides "(2)+(2)" to about a 100% effiency, no matter if its 3 mods or 2 mods.
However, there will be a little disparity for the (2)+(2) combo : 2 mods will put this combo into the 65-70% effiency range, while putting it to the 125% efficiency range with 3 mods.

4) Creating a new flat +ES/+EVA hybrid mod. This is the best option, honestly. (Edit : further details in the following posts)

Sidenotes : maybe the stats requirements for wearing hybrid gear should be higher, as I feel they're pretty low currently. I do not have the full vision of your balance philosophy, but I'd like hybrid gear to be a restrictive choice, meaning a slightly better advantage defensive wise (in the 10-20% range), while requiring way higher stats to be able to wear them.
Or maybe it should be the other way around, and "pure" gear should require higher stats and hybrid should stay sub-optimal. I dont know, its up to you GGG.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You can tweak the numbers of the spreadsheet if you want by making a copy of it, as it is in a read-only state from the link.

You can also put in ES/Armor or Armor/Eva numbers in it if you want, you just have to change the value of the prefixes and the base value of the equipments (take care to not change the formulas in the other cells!)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let me know if you think that spreadsheet need some rework, if it's not very eye-appealing or if you feel it's a bit confusing. I can add some explaining part into it.

Cheers!

_

Edit : After tweaking a little bit with the Evanescent hybrid prefixe, it seems to me it should be buffed to 120%, which corresponds to the 2nd highest range value of a "pure" ES prefixe. I just realized that a 150% buff was probably too much, and 120% seems more logical to me. It still makes any combo made of (3) & (1) less efficient by 10%, while making a (2)+(2) combo 10% more efficient, assuming a 3 mods roll. That seems more balanced, allthough it still leaves the 2 mods rolls way too much sub-optimal.

Edit2 : a 135% buff value of Evanescent would also make sense since its the average value between the highest ES prefixe (170) and and the highest EVA prefixe (100).
Uh, well at least the only thing I'm sure is that the hybrid ranges shouldnt be equal to the EVA ranges.

Bump for great Justice!

nice post. i can think of another way to make hybrid defence items fair -

hybrid items being able to roll an "X% increased defences" mod.

this would take into account both defence types singularly (add the amount of total defences together, then multiply), thus giving a % increase more on par with that of pure items.

this would be a really simple and effective way of correcting this obvious discrepancy, but please, correct me if i'm wrong (edit: as i could definitely be wrong).

It is actually already the case, Float ; the thing is that this % value is on par with the EVA roll, which means less optimal ES (since the %EVA is up to 100, and the %ES roll is up to 170).

However, a flat +ES/+EVA mod would be a good idea! Allthough wrong, your post made me think about that! Or maybe you made a typo and that was your point? Thanks for the contribution anyhow!

EDIT : On second thought, it is actually ***king great! It would get rid of the disparity between the (1)&(3) and (2)+(2) combos! It's the best fix that I can think of at this moment.

yep. implement. now.


bumpbumpbump

I made a thread about this too 2 days ago

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/52029

I won the lottery 3 times over when i rolled this



countless chaos orbs later.

In short, hybrid armor needs to be improved. It's boderline impossible to get anything worth using with them. Whereas their counterparts, pure armor types, can get good values so easily.

Well since your efficiency value is around the 70% mark, I'd say you were pretty damn lucky with your chaos orbs, and that its not so bad for a suboptimal base chest and a Scintillating prefixe.
Crafting with chaos orbs gives no control at all over the final result ; the only items I'd advise to chaos instead of the alt+regal+exalt method are weapons like daggers or jewelries because they have way too much possible affixes to make them worth the exalts, but that's another topic.

The MAIN issue I see with hybrid gear is the fact they have 4 prefixes and you are limited to 3 prefixes only per item. That is the reason why they are sup-optimal and you'd need to get 1 prefixe while exalting, whereas "pure" gears dont even need a 3rd prefixe to make them godlike.

Hence why GGG should merge the flat +ES mod and the flat +EVA mod into a new flat +ES/EVA mod. This way, crafters would get the same control over the result compared to the "pure" counterparts. Even if that new mod would be tweaked to suboptimal values, it would be better than the current state.


EDIT : It also seems that I posted in the wrong section and that I should crosspost this thread into the Beta feedback subforum.

bump for visibility

I made a similar point like this recently, though as a minor remark.

I completely agree. In theory, it hybrid armors are fine, but in practice, they are just too hard to use because getting good stats on both values, let alone one value, is nigh impossible.

With the way CI works, with the way Energy Shield works, it's significantly more sensible to use pure ES gear.

Imagine using armor/evasion gear with +life. You need to roll:

a good +life mod
a good +flat eva mod
a good +% eva mod
a good +flat armor mod
a good +% armor mod

What are the chances of this? Well, there are something like 30 mods for armor right? Something like that.

(30*29*28*27*26)^-1 = 5.847707e-8

And that's not considering the possible level of each mod.

And if even just 10% of all Duelists were to want hybrid armor, there still wouldn't be enough of it to go around.

The odds are still ridiculous even if there are only 20 mods.

The armor you are talking about has 5 prefixes ; this isnt D3, you can only have 3 prefixes in PoE (which is a thing I'd like to keep, it makes more sense) ; so yeah its impossible to craft this one, you'd have to choose 3 prefixes between the 4 you linked (since %eva and %armor is the same prefixe merged into an hybrid one).

However the point with hybrid gear behind sub-optimal still stands.

Please GGG, take a look at this post :(
Would be glad to hear your thought about a new flat +stat1/+stat2 hybrid mod.