Our view on map drop rates

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Chris wrote:

Hi guys,

This is posted in response to the Map Drop Rates thread.

Here are some observations on the current usage of the map system:

a) Players are not using enough chisels. I'm going to raise the drop rate of chisels in 0.9.12d. They are an important tool in helping get those maps that don't quite have complex enough mods to yield a whole new map on average.

b) Players are not playing hard enough maps (in terms of mods). If you don't have mods on it, its yield may not average a new map on average. For players who are making theirs rare with difficult mods, they get more maps than they spend, on average.

c) The nature of randomness means that conclusions drawn about playing low numbers of maps are dangerously misleading. Even when I was averaging 1.5 maps per map, I still had a run of six maps in a row where no new maps were found. I later had two maps in a row where I found three or more maps per run. That is randomness!

d) On average, players are finding more maps now.

e) On average, players are finding more items from maps now.

f) On average, players are reaching higher level maps more easily now.

g) Players appear to be running more maps than they were before the patch.

h) Most players are choosing maps that would have been good in 0.9.11, without switching to the mods that produce the best results in 0.9.12.

i) The modelling we were using does not account for some ways that maps are lost (disconnections, etc), so we are increasing the drop rate of maps in 0.9.12d to compensate.

Remember, if you get a bunch of people in a room to flip coins and count how many heads they get, a whole bunch of people are going to not get as many heads as they should on average and will feel that the system is unfair. For every person who has a bad experience with a string of eight maps, someone else is basking in riches. This same principle applies to everything else in this type of Action RPG that uses extreme randomness for its item system.

We'll continue to monitor feedback and statistics. Thanks again for the testing.

You can't take the average of infinity. So what exactly do you mean by "On average" ? averaged over how many runs? over how many drops? or do you mean trending toward -> x% ?

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Moosifer wrote:

On the actual subject, everyone is trying to roll the same affixes they did before the changes.

maze, larger area, pack size, blue mobs and rare mobs.

I'm not. I tried that for a short while and found it to be pointless. I switched to running hard maps after the last buff to map drops (0.9.12) and found that to be the most effective way to progress in the map game. Now though, it doesn't seem to matter how you do it, you'll fail and get stuck on 60/61s.

Running hard maps at least I have more maps than when I started, my map count is increasing, even if they're all level 60. :/

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An easy solution is make all outdoor map areas...

I agree but I also disagree. I think all of the map areas should be bigger. Removing the maze/area mods would be fine, as well. But I also found that those mods didn't make a very big difference prior to the 0.9.13 patch, what I found to be best was map quantity, nothing else was even close.

Increasing quantity significantly for tough combo mods would be brilliant. Elemental Weakness + Monsters do % more (insert elemental damage here) should definitely be a huge boost to the map's %, not around 30%.

What we have been playing so far seems like a giant placeholder to me, there is so much potential behind the idea of maps as end-game that I really refuse to believe what we have now is all there is to it. I am just going to throw a wild guess out there predicting that the map system will be reworked quite a bit upon entering open beta or shortly after.

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drakar8888 wrote:

What we have been playing so far seems like a giant placeholder to me, there is so much potential behind the idea of maps as end-game that I really refuse to believe what we have now is all there is to it. I am just going to throw a wild guess out there predicting that the map system will be reworked quite a bit upon entering open beta or shortly after.

I predict all we'll get is some extra maps recycling the acts 3 areas and bosses...

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RandallPOE wrote:

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drakar8888 wrote:

What we have been playing so far seems like a giant placeholder to me, there is so much potential behind the idea of maps as end-game that I really refuse to believe what we have now is all there is to it. I am just going to throw a wild guess out there predicting that the map system will be reworked quite a bit upon entering open beta or shortly after.

I predict all we'll get is some extra maps recycling the acts 3 areas and bosses...

That would be a start definitely, I can see myself replaying that new area with the marble floors and red carpets over and over.(tileset in pvp only currently) There is something quite awesome about it.

Something has changed since the last patch or 2.

It has to do with the level of maps dropping, not the # of maps.

Ive yet to run out, and I doubt I ever will, but the level of the maps I'm doing has gone down and all the data I have shows that it shouldnt have changed. Getting a +1 or +2 map level now is 10x less than it was before (data pool of 58 maps since the patch), my prev data pool is over 100 maps. Clearly 10x is a huge change. I've not changed the way Ive been rolling my maps either, as I have a formula I use.

About what Moo said, I disagree. crafting at that level could easy just be as effected by maps as it could be anything else. I see no reason to increase the map level. I thought it was high before the patch.


One major thing I don't like is that some of the best mods are not making the maps harder or even take much longer. They just are "better", things like -% max resist makes the map harder. Good. Things like +Area, does nothing but give more exp, and more loot at no risk.
-%max resist should be BETTER loot at least considering its more risky and gives less exp than +Area.

IMO they should double any mod that is more risky also have a varied IIQ it gives based on the range it is of much harder. ie -15% max resist gives +30IIQ, -30% max resists gives +60IIQ.
+20% Area gives -10IIQ, +40% Area gives -20IIQ.

This would allow for people to choose which type of map they want to run. While still keeping the costs of the maps a factor when you roll mods.

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MrDDT wrote:

Something has changed since the last patch or 2.

It has to do with the level of maps dropping, not the # of maps.

Ive yet to run out, and I doubt I ever will, but the level of the maps I'm doing has gone down and all the data I have shows that it shouldnt have changed. Getting a +1 or +2 map level now is 10x less than it was before (data pool of 58 maps since the patch), my prev data pool is over 100 maps. Clearly 10x is a huge change. I've not changed the way Ive been rolling my maps either, as I have a formula I use.

something is broken...
If it stays like that then nothing significant will change in the ladder posisions anymore till OB...maybe thats the secret plan ... conspiracy conspiracy conspiracy

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MrDDT wrote:

About what Moo said, I disagree. crafting at that level could easy just be as effected by maps as it could be anything else. I see no reason to increase the map level. I thought it was high before the patch.

maybe I don't understand you correctly
but I mean that it's not easy to obtain top-end crafting items
like vaal regalia, ezomyte circlet etc
I just would like to see more people craft ubergear
It wouldn't hurt because all will be wiped in a few days
just for shits and giggles ;D

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TehHammer wrote:

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Moosifer wrote:

On the actual subject, everyone is trying to roll the same affixes they did before the changes.

maze, larger area, pack size, blue mobs and rare mobs.

I'm not. I tried that for a short while and found it to be pointless. I switched to running hard maps after the last buff to map drops (0.9.12) and found that to be the most effective way to progress in the map game. Now though, it doesn't seem to matter how you do it, you'll fail and get stuck on 60/61s.

Running hard maps at least I have more maps than when I started, my map count is increasing, even if they're all level 60. :/

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An easy solution is make all outdoor map areas...

I agree but I also disagree. I think all of the map areas should be bigger. Removing the maze/area mods would be fine, as well. But I also found that those mods didn't make a very big difference prior to the 0.9.13 patch, what I found to be best was map quantity, nothing else was even close.

Increasing quantity significantly for tough combo mods would be brilliant. Elemental Weakness + Monsters do % more (insert elemental damage here) should definitely be a huge boost to the map's %, not around 30%.

Have we been doing the same maps? Everyone I've talked to said they are rolling the same mods, while they will do others that are hard they focus on the ones I listed. Hell Mouze told me before they fixed blue mods he used a divine to get 30% blue mobs.

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Moosifer wrote:

Have we been doing the same maps? Everyone I've talked to said they are rolling the same mods, while they will do others that are hard they focus on the ones I listed. Hell Mouze told me before they fixed blue mods he used a divine to get 30% blue mobs.

Some mods are stacked more than others yes, but doesnt mean we all doing the same maps. People have different limits of what they will do.

Its like this, would you reroll a map with just 80%IIQ? What if it was +Area 20% 37%IIQ? Which one do you think is better? Both alched no chisels.

To me, I wouldnt do either of those maps, and in my book the 80%IIQ is better than the area+37%IIQ. Even know I know a ton of people would do the area map because they see area and go YES!

My point is just because you get a mod or 2 thats good (talking alched maps) doesnt mean the map shouldnt be rerolled. I place a value on maps, and each mod has a value. If it doesnt add up to enough value, I will chaos it. Now, this also changes based on how much money (currency) I have, and the level of the map. Of course higher level maps, need to be chiseled (everyone knows this) but some people have again different values they looking for, also some people dont know really which mods are "enough" value to keep/reroll.

So are we all looking for the same mods? I know I'm looking for ALL the mods, so I dont think you are running the same maps I am.


On top of all this, you have factors to consider like which mods can your build/playstyle/speed can you handle?

I was talking to people the other day they dont like running tempchains maps for nothing, even though its not going to kill them, it just slows them down. While I LOVE seeing tempchains on a map because of the value it brings. +27IIQ from 1 mod.


So I ask you, are you running the same maps as everyone else?

Well it seems I run similar maps to people in the ladder in default. I wish I was as good with math as you were so I could figure this shit out myself but the more you talk the more I feel like a pre-schooler. God how I'd love to steal your formula/spreadsheet(/...brain?). So I could be doing alot of maps you consider to be garbage.

With regards to tempchain the people I have been running with and I don't die doing them but it's just annoying to do.

I also like your ideas compounded with mine. Making all benefit mods give -IIQ but hard mods much higher so they are at least equal in value. Also I still think that hard combos should give even more benefit, and to add your input, easy mods should give compounded loss. If the cost of rolling high lvl maps means you can't craft because all of your wealth goes into to getting alch/chaos/chisels you should have a higher chance of getting maps, MUCH higher, than if just running plan blues. I know you told me there is a difference but I don't think it's noticeable enough to really justify the overall cost. Hell I know a few people who were rolling blue maps then using regals to get an IIQ bonus to 2 good affixes (then again, the regal market is trashed in default because of a few people, not sure how it is in HC).

Also my push for having maps all have maze/+area is they feel very small as is. Most of my boredom in farming/grinding out exp comes from doing a small run ten billion times, as in most games (or at least ones I've played) the best option is to run a certain boss or small area on repeat until desired goal is completed. Having a larger area where you feel the need to kill everything, as you still have the desire to find maps, makes the grind a little less brutal. Also running a map every 3-6 mins feels too quick. I mean if my group pushed mapping hard like we did the last few hours of the race I could get more instances opened up than when I was doing cave runs. I don't think there is anything particularly special about our group I think most people are in our situation once over lvl 75.