POE acrobatics/evade/ondar's guile demonstration

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Zvim wrote:

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Barry wrote:

I'm working on a ranger at the moment, I plan to take all evasion and block chance nodes. I want to see if it's possible to make a character that can't get hit. It's working out pretty well so far, running through cruel taking very little damage.

It is not mathematically possible.

I am not sure of the exact order but you will test to evade, test to dodge, test to block. Whatever order it is doesn't really matter. Even if you have 95% Evasion, 30/60% Dodge and 78% Block, it is only a matter of time until a hit gets through all three.

1 in 20 hits will get through Evasion, so if you get 'hit' by 1000 projectiles 50 will get through Evasion. Of those 50, 20 will get through Dodge/Ondar on average and of the 20, 4 will get through Block on average.

The question is what happens when you get hit.

This has always been the problem with using avoidance, you still need to be able to mitigate the hits that get through so it doesn't kill you.

Only having 4 in 1000 hits actually do damage to you is awesome, but not if 1 hit will kill you because you have everything in avoidance and nothing in mitigation. This is why, generally, people have used IR to convert evasion into armour because more reliable mitigation is better than spikey damage based on if you evade or not.

things that can one shot you are usually cannot be prevented by high armour b\c of the way armour works in this game, the best form of defense are life, resists, evade\dodging, and block. if you combine all those effectively, you'll be almost invincible. armour is only good to lessen small hits, but who the hell dies from small hits? just having some form of armour 2-3k is enough to tank things such as titty bitches, etc, but even before getting hit, u have evasion\dodging -> block before it goes thru your armour then your life. people who thinks armour is better never compare taking 1 shot from having 25k+ armour and having chance to dodge/block that oneshot and easily prevent a death.

I don't think evade/dodge is a bad choice, i've been using even before the rework and I felt very strong, especially because acrobatics is an evade mechanic that is independant of gear. This game is complex in the fact that you can combine many things to make an op character.

Darkray Vectors.

cool

Update video time. Taking down Brutus:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnAprbaJVKU&

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aznsky01 wrote:

things that can one shot you are usually cannot be prevented by high armour b\c of the way armour works in this game, the best form of defense are life, resists, evade\dodging, and block. if you combine all those effectively, you'll be almost invincible. armour is only good to lessen small hits, but who the hell dies from small hits? just having some form of armour 2-3k is enough to tank things such as titty bitches, etc, but even before getting hit, u have evasion\dodging -> block before it goes thru your armour then your life. people who thinks armour is better never compare taking 1 shot from having 25k+ armour and having chance to dodge/block that oneshot and easily prevent a death.

Yes and No. :P

Armour is good for pretty much negating small hits but it also mitigates large hits, it is the super hard hits which it is mostly ineffective at mitigating enough of the damage to survive.

Evasion isn't really a problem because it flattens out the evasions so you are not going to get an unlucky patch of lots of missed evades, even if randomly speaking it is mathematically possible, PoE flattens out the evasion mechanic. That makes it somewhat reliable, especially when you can reduce the accuracy of mobs. Between blind and enfeeble you can make the probability of evading really high so something that hits blazing hard is unlikely going to get the frequency of hits to slip too many into the window it has to hit.

However, the fall back mechanics in block and dodge are completely random. You might have capped 95% evasion, but the question is what happens when the stars align and a hit gets through evasion, block fails you because it rolled higher than 78% and dodge fails you because it rolled higher than 30%. You now have to be able to survive the hits that get through the avoidance mechanic.

If you have 5k health and you get charged by a rhoa that hits for 6.5k and it gets through the avoidance mechanics and you have feeble mitigation then the character is dead. You only need one bad/unlucky series of rolls.

That is doable in softcore because the numbers are probably not going to occurr that often, but it is not really for a hardcore league.

The problem is your danger zone with low/no mitigation isn't just boss mobs who you can blind and enfeeble and wont get the number of hits on you required for the avoidance tests to spectacularly fail. You are likely going to go down to some scrub white mob that got a lucky hit on you.

I've been working on an evasion character, face tanking Brutis is possible but you can still get unlucky and 1 shot because of the way evasion works.

Check out the evasion wiki page - http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Evasion

So far the most effective way I've found to deal with those hard hitting boss type mobs is hitting them with enfeeble, and using the blind support gem on your single target attack. With the two debuffs and high evasion you can DPS bosses down before they get a hit in, combine that with a ranged character and some movement speed you wont get hit at all. Even better the cold arrows from Piety count as projectiles and with enfeble + blind on her she does nothing.

Here's what I think to be the most difficult things for evasion based characters and possible solutions.

1) Physical reflect - If you go 100% evasion you will kill yourself for sure, I am building a piercing split arrow evasion ranger and for a while I would offscreen insta kill myself to reflect. I've been working towards converting my damage to elemental to deal with this. Granite Flasks help but if you have crit and some multiplier it wont matter, you're still going to die and need to do elemental damage.

2) Puncture - Part of playing evasion is getting used to not being hit by stuff, it just happens. If that random attack that gets through on you happens to be puncture with your 0% armor and you run around kiting like I do your HP will disappear fast. Get a Flask that removes bleed and be very careful.

3) Flicker - Any type of mob that can teleport to you with an attack can be a huge issue, since evasion is pretty steady you may evade a couple of those attacks but 1 will always get through. Kiting these mobs doesn't really work well so mostly I've just tried to enfeeble them and face tank with a granite and maybe diamond flask or be really careful and off screen them before they can get in flicker range.


Overall evasion has been fun and when you face tank merciless brutis with 1.5k HP and take 0 damage the entire time it can be pretty hilarious. I think in the end though evasion may still be a bit lacking for very high end content. In a party with people tanking for you it probably wont be to big of a deal but if you ever want to solo a map with a ton of damage mods forget about it. That 1 hit that gets through will 1 shot you, balancing evasion with mitigation doesn't really seem like an option to me.

When did physical reflect become a problem for you? I am an evasion split arrow ranger in merciless fellshrine, and haven't really had a problem with it.

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Seeders wrote:

When did physical reflect become a problem for you? I am an evasion split arrow ranger in merciless fellshrine, and haven't really had a problem with it.

Hmm probably some time in act 2 merciless :)

I upgraded my bow and when I crit reflect packs it chunks me pretty good. But I am using a full physical setup at the moment, I need the mana leach from physical damage until I can switch to a blood magic cast setup.

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Zvim wrote:

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aznsky01 wrote:

things that can one shot you are usually cannot be prevented by high armour b\c of the way armour works in this game, the best form of defense are life, resists, evade\dodging, and block. if you combine all those effectively, you'll be almost invincible. armour is only good to lessen small hits, but who the hell dies from small hits? just having some form of armour 2-3k is enough to tank things such as titty bitches, etc, but even before getting hit, u have evasion\dodging -> block before it goes thru your armour then your life. people who thinks armour is better never compare taking 1 shot from having 25k+ armour and having chance to dodge/block that oneshot and easily prevent a death.

Yes and No. :P

Armour is good for pretty much negating small hits but it also mitigates large hits, it is the super hard hits which it is mostly ineffective at mitigating enough of the damage to survive.

Evasion isn't really a problem because it flattens out the evasions so you are not going to get an unlucky patch of lots of missed evades, even if randomly speaking it is mathematically possible, PoE flattens out the evasion mechanic. That makes it somewhat reliable, especially when you can reduce the accuracy of mobs. Between blind and enfeeble you can make the probability of evading really high so something that hits blazing hard is unlikely going to get the frequency of hits to slip too many into the window it has to hit.

However, the fall back mechanics in block and dodge are completely random. You might have capped 95% evasion, but the question is what happens when the stars align and a hit gets through evasion, block fails you because it rolled higher than 78% and dodge fails you because it rolled higher than 30%. You now have to be able to survive the hits that get through the avoidance mechanic.

If you have 5k health and you get charged by a rhoa that hits for 6.5k and it gets through the avoidance mechanics and you have feeble mitigation then the character is dead. You only need one bad/unlucky series of rolls.

That is doable in softcore because the numbers are probably not going to occurr that often, but it is not really for a hardcore league.

The problem is your danger zone with low/no mitigation isn't just boss mobs who you can blind and enfeeble and wont get the number of hits on you required for the avoidance tests to spectacularly fail. You are likely going to go down to some scrub white mob that got a lucky hit on you.

i think with a hit that one shot you thru all ur defenses, having armour won't help that much ive played characters with 10-25k armour and any big hits still hits for a shit ton, no joke, they just hit thru your armour like its paper, when someone throw a tank at you, the best thing to do is dodge it, dodge\block in poe case. i'm not saying armour is useless, armour is something thats only there to deal with one type of dmg, physical, with ev\dodge\block, they deal with all types of dmg and that is the best form of defense, imagine standing in a crema boss firestorm and taking absolutely no dmg, lol. However, with the new changes to acrobatics, its not too hard to have 5k+ health, 5-10k armour, 30% dodge to attacks, 60% dodge to projectile attacks, 20% spell dodge, 78% block chance, and -+40 spell block. That is alot better than just having armour.