One Handed vs Two handed - Why 1Hers needs a buff, and how to balance the two.

I would argue that the stat bonuses from using Sword & Board / DW can never really live up to the extreme utility of a 6L item. Going from 5L to 6L is always quite an insane damage boost. EX: Cleave & Dual Strike linked to Faster Attacks, Multistrike, Life leech is substantially lower damage than the same situation if you add in a Melee physical support gem. In this case we have a 5L item with 2 skills being supported by 3 supports compared to a 6L item with 2 skills being supported by 4 supports. WHICH IS ALREADY POSSIBLE. However, with the addition of my proposed change, it would then be possible to have 2 6L items with only 1 Skill each, both being supported by 5 supports. The damage increase of adding in a 5th support to either of those skills is MASSIVE, and that simply cannot be done with a DW build.

I guess my overall point is that this change would allow for DW builds that actually take advantage of DW passives to be more viable than they are now. It is a very hard choice to pick DW over 2Her solely for the reason of the extra 6L.

Taking a look at extreme late game stats, you will find the stats of a shield to be negligible for melee builds. Having an additional 1000 armor when you already have 12000 makes almost no change.

In the case of witches using 2 wands or a wand and a shield with tons of spell damage, I can see some complications with the change. Anyone have an idea on how to fix this?

@HipsterTea:

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HipsterTea wrote:

I would argue that the stat bonuses from using Sword & Board / DW can never really live up to the extreme utility of a 6L item.

Shields can have up to ~40% block chance. That's over one third of all attacks, melee and projectile, completely ignored.

There's plenty of good stuff to be had: 74% spell damage, 22% cast speed, 41% projectile speed, 69% mana regeneration, 45% elemental resistance, 30% chaos resistance, +50 to an attribute, all without any mana multipliers. Did I mention you can have 3 prefixes and 3 suffixes?

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HipsterTea wrote:

Going from 5L to 6L is always quite an insane damage boost.

And an insane mana multiplier, too.

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HipsterTea wrote:

EX: Cleave & Dual Strike linked to Faster Attacks, Multistrike, Life leech is substantially lower damage than the same situation if you add in a Melee physical support gem.

One-handers have a much higher attack speed. Up to 2.0+, which is massively multiplied by Faster Attacks and then again by Multistrike.

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HipsterTea wrote:

In this case we have a 5L item with 2 skills being supported by 3 supports compared to a 6L item with 2 skills being supported by 4 supports. WHICH IS ALREADY POSSIBLE. However, with the addition of my proposed change, it would then be possible to have 2 6L items with only 1 Skill each, both being supported by 5 supports.

So in reality, it's only giving you one more support gem. Granted, you can have different supports on the second skill, but hey, 2H has to have some perks, right?

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HipsterTea wrote:

The damage increase of adding in a 5th support to either of those skills is MASSIVE, and that simply cannot be done with a DW build.

Wait, after Faster Attacks, Multistrike, Life Leech, and Melee Physical Damage (4 supports, which can be linked to 2 skills for only one 6L), what would you add to get this MASSIVE damage increase? Added Fire Damage? Melee Damage on Full Life?

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HipsterTea wrote:

I guess my overall point is that this change would allow for DW builds that actually take advantage of DW passives to be more viable than they are now.

Which DW passives aren't being taken advantage of?

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HipsterTea wrote:

It is a very hard choice to pick DW over 2Her solely for the reason of the extra 6L.

Most builds focus on one skill. In those cases, they lose nothing by going with one-handers. They boost their AOE and take a hit to single-target DPS. If necessary, they can swap their single-target into their 6L for big boss fights.

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HipsterTea wrote:

Taking a look at extreme late game stats, you will find the stats of a shield to be negligible for melee builds. Having an additional 1000 armor when you already have 12000 makes almost no change.

A good shield isn't going to add a mere 1000 armor. I have a 1,600 evasion shield with Iron Reflexes, Body and Soul / Mind and Matter passive nodes, and run Determination. My shield alone gives nearly 8,000 armor.



@Japhasca:

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Japhasca wrote:

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Hercanic wrote:

Did I miss anything?

Yes, you did.

Let me rephrase: Did I miss anything important? =oP

I left out some class specific things, like a Barbarian with Weapon Master will care (somewhat) whether he equips an Axe or a Sword, but how about a Wizard? They might as well be two enchanted bananas for all he cares. In PoE, each weapon type has intrinsic properties that give them an identity. It's little touches like this that deepen PoE's pool.

(To be clear, in D3 I maxed all five classes to level 60 and then some.)

So I said earlier 3+3!=6, but perhaps 4+4=6?

Hercanic, you make some strong points, and overall I'd say I agree that DW doesn't really need to be changed.

However I would like to point out that the diminishing returns on armor still make shields a bad investment in my opinion at end game content. EX: in my build i have Leather and Steel, Steel skin, Armor Mastery, and Mind and Matter (also run iron reflexes and grace). This is an insane ammount of armor, and im hitting 75%-80% physical reduction without endurance charges quite easily while dual wielding. The addition of another 8000 armor will glean around 5-8% more physical reduction, which i can simply gain from 2 endurance charges. (also a party member runs determination for me as well)

Unless you are running a shield for a reason like using shield charge or something I'd say it isnt that great. Block would be the only good part of it.

Also, swapping to a single target skill setup in the same 6L is not always possible, as is the case in my build where my ideal 6L for cleave is RRRRRG. To switch to dual strike i'd need RRRRGG, big difference.

I should rephrase my overall point again to say that 2hers gain more utility when you have almost perfect rolls in every slot. The 2nd 6L will give you boatloads of utility.

I'd say the true perk of running a 2H weapon would not be the 2nd 6L (i feel every build should have access to 2) but the fact that it is easier to itemize as you only need 1 item to roll the stats you need as opposed to 2.

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HipsterTea wrote:

I should rephrase my overall point again to say that 2hers gain more utility when you have almost perfect rolls in every slot. The 2nd 6L will give you boatloads of utility.

I'd say the true perk of running a 2H weapon would not be the 2nd 6L (i feel every build should have access to 2) but the fact that it is easier to itemize as you only need 1 item to roll the stats you need as opposed to 2.

There shouldn't be economical advantages in using 2h or DW.
The advantages and disadvantages should be purely playstyle.

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Hercanic wrote:

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Japhasca wrote:

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Hercanic wrote:

Did I miss anything?

Yes, you did.

Let me rephrase: Did I miss anything important? =oP

I left out some class specific things, like a Barbarian with Weapon Master will care (somewhat) whether he equips an Axe or a Sword, but how about a Wizard? They might as well be two enchanted bananas for all he cares. In PoE, each weapon type has intrinsic properties that give them an identity. It's little touches like this that deepen PoE's pool.

(To be clear, in D3 I maxed all five classes to level 60 and then some.)

Actually, yes, you did, still. I'm not sure you actually read anything I wrote, but again, I stated,

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Japhasca wrote:

I don't explain this to pretend it's better than POE somehow, just that it is very important to balance how various wielding works to give each method (2H, dual 1H, 1H + shield) equivalent viability.

I'm not concerned with D3's methodology here, as it was brought up, I used it only as an example of the need to balance wielding schemes, and that was it.

However that is a good side-point you bring up: I like that each weapon type in POE actually has some specifics to it, that can be used to synergize with other gearing choices, instead of D3's random stat-stick weapons.

I thought the benefit of 2 one handed items was the option of 30-40% damage mitigation, or the ability to have 2x the weapon affixes (attack spd, dmg) that a 2h can offer?

2H = High offense
1 extra 6L, if you even need it.


DW = High offense, defense (DW block) and attack speed
Both weapons have 6 mods each(6 more than 2H), and some mods from one weapon affect the other, practically meaning it is doubled. (3% life leech on one weapon, means 6% leech on dual strike, elemental cleave using the total elemental dmg from both weapons)
Crazy attack speed bonuses favoring faster killing and on hit effects
DW block, just like block chance and when specced into is a great defense.

1h + shield = Offense and high defense
Implicit mods on shield that cannot be gotten on any other item.
Shields can roll life, which weapons can't
BLOCK CHANCE!!!! Cannot stress this any further. It's so good.


The extra 6L for 2H is not always needed. People only need 1 6L, on their chest, and that's good enough.

A 6L is not a necessity, but a luxury. You have to get the 6L first. 3L on 1h is easy to roll and link.

If anything, you're kill speed with a 2H is not any much faster than it would be if you used DW. Heck you could probably kill faster with DW because of how much attack speed you can amass.

If anything, 2Hs need a boost. Not 1h or DW.