One Handed vs Two handed - Why 1Hers needs a buff, and how to balance the two.

The mere fact that choosing to go DW makes it so you will only have a maximum of 1 6-link item continues to discourage me. IMO, dual wielding should be changed, and I have an idea of how to make it work:

In order to allow for 2 6-linked items, all 1 handed items can have up to 6 sockets, with the exception of shields. Shields will never have any sockets. Also, any item equipped in the off -hand (shield slot) will have all sockets disabled. This allows for 2 six linked items to be used by ALL classes as opposed to only those who choose to use two handed weapons.

I personally cannot see any reason why this would be a bad change. Any thoughts?

Not a bad thought. Transition would be a bitch, though!

I would be interested in hearing a discussion on the rationale for what we have now.

Obviously 3+3 != 6.

Indeed 3+3 != 6.

Let's see why.

• Dual 3L gives you the potential to have 2 Skill Gems, with 2 Support Gems each.
• 2-Handed 6L gives you several higher potentials...
  a) 4 Skills with 2 Supports each (same potential, more quantity of skills, but less variety of supports)
  b) 3 Skills with 3 Supports each (more potential, more quantity of skills, slightly less variety of supports)
  c) 2 Skills with 4 Supports each (alot more potential, same quantity of skills, same variety)
  d) 1 Skill with 5 Supports (vastly superior potential, less quantity of skills, less variety)
  

I think nothing else needs to be said.

There is absolutely no advantage in terms of Skills while Dual Wielding.

Favoring 2-Handed Weapon:
- Physical Attacks are more mana effective (more damage per swing)
- Alot better skill capacity


Favoring Dual Wield:
- Dual Wielding Block Chance
- Faster attacks means better with "added damage" and other on-hit effects
(Since someone will mention this anyway) - Cheaper/easier to obtain max Links on one-handed weapons

I don't think 1h + shield needs any help compared to 2h. A shield is a massive advantage in melee, where having good defence is so important. It's only fair that you pay for it with some loss in offensive power.

With dual-wield, the skills Dual Strike and Cleave are already very strong and don't need to be made stronger. There are also ways to build your character around crazy attack speed that don't translate so well to 2h weapons: life on hit, Blind, off-weapon damage, Wrath, Anger...

The only thing I think is a bit messed up at the moment is the combination of Kaom's Heart with a 6l weapon. If Kaom's somehow prevented you from using more than a 4l anywhere on your gear, it would be a much more interesting trade-off to wear it. Once you take Kaom's out of the picture, the socket advantage looks much less dramatic: yes, 2h builds get to have two 6l items, but how much do you really need that second 6l? (You probably want to 6l your main attack/spell, but beyond that, the benefits of stuffing your skills with supports or having lots of skills with the same supports are not so huge for most builds.)

Good point, however in my current build i use Cleave for multi target dps, and dual strike for single target dps. Would be nice to be able to have 5 supports linked to both as opposed to 4. I know i can swap gems out, however socket colors differ between the two skills, which ends up being rather annoying.

"

HipsterTea wrote:

The mere fact that choosing to go DW makes it so you will only have a maximum of 1 6-link item continues to discourage me. IMO, dual wielding should be changed, and I have an idea of how to make it work:

In order to allow for 2 6-linked items, all 1 handed items can have up to 6 sockets, with the exception of shields. Shields will never have any sockets. Also, any item equipped in the off -hand (shield slot) will have all sockets disabled. This allows for 2 six linked items to be used by ALL classes as opposed to only those who choose to use two handed weapons.

This is fine by me! As a summoning witch, I have three minion spells I basically need, which could all share the same three support gems (Minion Health, Minion Damage, and Additional Accuracy, with the awesome quality bonus of CC). Having two items where I could try to get this skill combo going (5 blues, 1 green, all linked) would be very nice at high-level play.

Why do you want to homogenize gear choice?

6L is what makes 2H stand out. The sacrifice of shield and offhand stats is what makes the decision difficult, and therefore interesting.

Would your build be better if one or two of your skills could have a few more support gems? Or do you need more survivability with a shield? Or maybe you want to benefit all your spells with dual-wand spell damage? You gain some, you lose some.

Diablo 3 had to double the stats on 2H just to make them equal to the stats you could get with two one-handed items. That's not interesting; it's just two routes to the same destination.

If you feel dual-wield or sword-n-board is weak, then consider buffing it in the area that makes it unique, not co-opting what makes 2H unique.

"

Hercanic wrote:

Diablo 3 had to double the stats on 2H just to make them equal to the stats you could get with two one-handed items. That's not interesting; it's just two routes to the same destination.

To be fair, that's not the whole story. The base stats were more-or-less doubled because D3 is a stat-on-gear based game (by far) and relies on two basic things to improve damage output: weapon dps, and multiplier stats. Without buffing 2H stats, there would have been literally no reason to use them, since you could equip 2 1H weapons, or a 1H and an offhand, to get the same stat range.

The main issue needed for this attempt at balance was that 2H weapons do not intrinsically roll better dps than 1H weapons, because 1H weapons, if dual-wielded, alternate attacks; they do not combine dps. Additionally, sockets on weapons are intrinsically better than sockets on offhands because they provide different (and better) stats; and, since sockets and stats stack on dual-wielded (but dps doesn't) there needed to be a buff to 2H or no one would use it.

I don't explain this to pretend it's better than POE somehow, just that it is very important to balance how various wielding works to give each method (2H, dual 1H, 1H + shield) equivalent viability.

@Japhasca:

"

Japhasca wrote:

To be fair, that's not the whole story.

That's because the whole story is boring. =oP

"

Japhasca wrote:

The base stats were more-or-less doubled because D3 is a stat-on-gear based game

And this was the point of the example: D3 has few things that affect your gear choice beyond DPS. Go attack speed for Effect On Crit builds, or go slow two-handed DPS for primary resource management. Dual wield for another 80% crit gem. Did I miss anything?

Giving 1H weapons the ability to have 6L is a step toward D3-level gear depth.

"

Hercanic wrote:

Did I miss anything?

Yes, you did.

"

Japhasca wrote:

I don't explain this to pretend it's better than POE somehow, just that it is very important to balance how various wielding works to give each method (2H, dual 1H, 1H + shield) equivalent viability.

I'm not going to say that POE's weapon-gearing IS unbalanced because I honestly don't know. I've only played three witches so far and in every case I've gone 1H/shield.

However, it's pretty obvious that any class with 2 6-link options stands to have (ideally) much better skill/support skill combo options than other classes. Is that the end-all and be-all of gearing? Well, I don't think so. I'm sure there are plenty of builds where this isn't necessary, either due to the build's actual skill needs, or perhaps due to the build's reliance on stats over massive skill linking.

Maybe it's okay, as-is, I don't know.

But it IS a very important area for balance, and I support developer interest in this area.