GGG stance on "Mules" (Multi-Boxing to store gear, improve exp and loot drops)

I see a lot of logic in rwt's responses and I don't see much in anyone else's. Again, bringing up a completely different genre, and using an example of opposite sides and then comparing it to this game is unbelievably flawed logic.

Also, saying that a 6 man party automatically means 6 people are vying for loot isn't necessarily true. If I'm farming an area and want leechers, those leechers aren't going to have any rights to loot (unless I tell them they do), and if they start grabbing loot, they're getting kicked (and blacklisted). This was a VERY common thing prior to instanced loot (really prior to 0.9.9, most of those that requested leechers left the game after 0.9.8). People leeched to earn levels and pick up leftover loot, those doing the killing did it for the exp and first choice at loot.

Logically, I feel there are only a few reasons why people would think making the game harder is cheating.

1) The game is already too hard for them and the thought of adding more difficulty to it is unfathomable, and therefore anyone doing it is cheating in some way to be able to do it.

2) They can't run more than one account due to limitations of their resources (i.e. not enough computers, beta keys, etc.).

rwt pretty much nailed these, but please inform me of any other reasons, I'd love to hear them.

Obviously I'm a little biased, I've been using afk accounts for several patches now, but why is the game being harder and therefore reaping better rewards "cheating", and how much user interaction has to take place before it isn't cheating any more?

A fix to the exp bonus "gaming" could be to have a cap on the percentage of total exp earned. Perhaps something like 5% over an even split (55% for 2 man parties, 38% for 3 man parties, etc), that way if I'm a level 80 in with a level 60, I'm getting 55% and if I'm a level 80 in with a level 1 I'm getting 55%.

"

TehHammer wrote:

I see a lot of logic in rwt's responses and I don't see much in anyone else's. Again, bringing up a completely different genre, and using an example of opposite sides and then comparing it to this game is unbelievably flawed logic.

Also, saying that a 6 man party automatically means 6 people are vying for loot isn't necessarily true. If I'm farming an area and want leechers, those leechers aren't going to have any rights to loot (unless I tell them they do), and if they start grabbing loot, they're getting kicked (and blacklisted). This was a VERY common thing prior to instanced loot (really prior to 0.9.9, most of those that requested leechers left the game after 0.9.8). People leeched to earn levels and pick up leftover loot, those doing the killing did it for the exp and first choice at loot.

Logically, I feel there are only a few reasons why people would think making the game harder is cheating.

1) The game is already too hard for them and the thought of adding more difficulty to it is unfathomable, and therefore anyone doing it is cheating in some way to be able to do it.

2) They can't run more than one account due to limitations of their resources (i.e. not enough computers, beta keys, etc.).

rwt pretty much nailed these, but please inform me of any other reasons, I'd love to hear them.

Obviously I'm a little biased, I've been using afk accounts for several patches now, but why is the game being harder and therefore reaping better rewards "cheating", and how much user interaction has to take place before it isn't cheating any more?

A fix to the exp bonus "gaming" could be to have a cap on the percentage of total exp earned. Perhaps something like 5% over an even split (55% for 2 man parties, 38% for 3 man parties, etc), that way if I'm a level 80 in with a level 60, I'm getting 55% and if I'm a level 80 in with a level 1 I'm getting 55%.

The problem with #1 is that the game itself isn't hard, it's that the passive system can make it hard. I'm running a duelist and I do pretty well, but I have few int nodes and even fewer quality armor/life nodes that are really worthwhile (both in quality and distance from my chosen build) that I'm a glass cannon without the cannon.

As for #2, it would seem that that's not a legitimate point. There's never been a game that was alright with one user being concurrently logged into two accounts. These games are meant to be played with one account.

Using five mule accounts to increase drops is a problem and the new patch isn't going to fix it. Even though the item drop rate inside the maps won't be increased by having a bunch of mule accounts inside people will still be able to use their mule accounts on the act2 boss and pyramids level 2 to substantially increase the drop rate of maps.

The current situation is pretty much pay2win, where people who can buy a bunch of laptops or a powerful enough computer to run multiple instances of the game at once get more loot.

If this can't be fixed there needs to be an option like the /players 8 command in diablo 2 so that everyone can do this. Another possible fix is to make it so increased party size doesn't increase the drop rate of maps, but even then it's still possible to use this exploit to increase the drop rate of orbs in the final areas of act2. Also, that would have a negative impact on legitimate groups of people clearing the pyramids and killing the last boss.

I hope GGG takes this issue seriously and at least does something, if nothing else a /players 1-6 command would work and it would be better then just ignoring this issue.

I should have mentioned that /players x was not permitted on realm, and naturally every single game of PoE is technically on-realm.

I think Hammer's example regarding his kids (the ones older than age 1, although I don't see why his 6 month old can't have an account and just stay afk, probably in a crib or bassinet) is a good one. Multiboxing/'muling' merely simulates more fortunate situations that cannot be questioned.

But if it's going to happen, and I think it is, I think opening the door to everyone via a form of /players x would certainly level the playing field. If you're smart/cheesy enough to make a build that can solo a map beefed up to accommodate 6 players' worth of damage, good for you.

That said, if I really wanted to stop multiboxing in, say, a race or ladder, I'd just have an option for custom leagues to have adjustable maximum party sizes. Yes, it's a multiplayer game but not everyone plays it multiplayer, at least not consistently.

This way people who want to solo and don't want to compete with multiboxers could do so secure in the knowledge that everyone else on that league is playing by the same rule. And those who want to multibox or even /players x (why not make that another custom league option?) can do so on other leagues.

Because in the end, these sorts of things really do only affect the league they happen on, I should think.

GGG has hit a gold mine with the custom league idea, because even if the game is overrun with bots, muling, etc...regular custom league temporary races of various nature will render all such things invalid. And I know that I haven't had as much fun on this game as I do during those races. That's when I feel my skill is really being tested, not in endless Fellshrine runs with a character I've known for weeks or even months.

A slight tangent, for which I apologise, but I hope my point is made clear enough: I do not fear any bots or exploits provided I can play on a league that can somehow render them impotent.

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Danos wrote:

The current situation is pretty much pay2win, where people who can buy a bunch of laptops or a powerful enough computer to run multiple instances of the game at once get more loot.

This is using the established term for microtransactions offered by the game developers to confer in-game advantage 'pay to win' very much out of context.

Like I said to PureHavok and Oldman in the chat yesterday (yeah, I kept him anonymous in my post above, he was the one I was talking to, props +1 for him volunteering to post here, he didn't need to), I'm ambivalent about this, but after my "brain fart" and the neurotoxic purple gas has cleared from my surroundings, but my position on the potential abuse of farming for real $$$ and ladder abuse still holds.

Let's wait till the new week, hopefully GGG will weigh in on this, outlining their policy and how they can use the game mechanics to dis/en/courage this.

I think the reason some people consider multi-boxing cheating is due to the fact that it is not available to everyone. Those of you defending the method may believe that if you're character is effective enough to deal with the higher difficulty, then you have a right to enjoy those perks. But what about players who have equally strong characters but don't have the good fortune of having multiple computers? Why should they have to play longer to receive the same experience and loot?

Nobody could argue this is not in the grey area as far as fairness is concerned, as it is in some cases an unfair advantage.

The playing field should be even, so I do think that a method such as the ability to manually set the difficulty for yourself should be an option, purely because it would be available to everyone.

I'm obviously biased but I think that Sony_Black, Liambrane and I have the solution. It seems the two sides of this argument are like the US Congress, blindly screaming that their way is right and your way is teh stupid, with no fixes other than a 100% one way or the other approach.

Limit the bonus's for playing in a group based on the difference in level. simple, possibly not simple to implement but I have faith.

This does 2 things
1). Adds a large time sink (aka deterrent) to effectively multiboxing, where if you are wanting increased diffculty and drops the map system will net better ROI. This will keep the majority of people from rushing a lvl 1 mule up to the top difficulty just so they can get the extra bonus's.

2) Lets the people who want to put the time into leveling their other accounts to match the one they want to run in a 6 man game. For those of you worried about the ladder, in the time it takes for Multiboxer to level 5 mules to level 60+ so they can run solo-6 you will have had all that time on your single character moving up the ladder.

2a) Combining the two possibly have some sort of de-buff in ladder ranking if the other characters in the game are idle, though that would lead some to bot up.

Can we have some better discussion/solutions other than, NO I'M RIGHT!
NOOOO I'M RIGHT!
NO YOU ARE A STUPID HEAD WITH A STUPID FACE!

^argument possibly enhanced to make it more dramatic ;)

Fortunately, my argument, as noted by my signature, is not that YOU HAVE A STUPID FACE! but rather that I have a Superior Face. ;)

That aside, the idea of having /players X just means that most players who hear that it exists in the game are simply going to *always* run /players 1 or /players 6... and I'm guessing /players 6 will take priority for anyone who's remotely good at this game... or who wants to be.

That's going to lead to a lack of reason in even having increased loot for multiple players, because it will all be the same. So then multiplayer will phase out, defeating the purpose of all of this.

So I approve of level requirements for characters to enter certain zones.

Solution:
Make bonus exp and loot from party scalable.
There are 2 ways to do this.

1.Scaling by party levels.
party_level = member1_lvl + member2_lvl + member_lvl.... etc
Scale = party_level/member_lvl_max

In the scenario where everyone is almost equal:
member1_lvl = member2_lvl = member3_lvl ... etc
party_level = 6x member_lvl
scale = 6x member_lvl/member_lvl
scale = 600% <-- This number does not indicate actual in-game increase, it is a subject of balance (for exp/loot party bonuses go to mechnics thread).

And now with party of one lvl 60 and 5 lvl 1 characters
party_lvl = 60 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 = 65
scale = 65/60 =~1,1 = 110% <-- only 10% increase

You can do the same but change level scaling to exp scaling. This will be even more harsh due to exp/level curve.


TL,DR:
Now: monster life, drops and exp gains scaling depends on number of party memebers.
After: monster life, drops and exp gains scaling depends on number of competent party members.