Looting -- The official thread for discussing the loot system. Updated 18th March, 2013.
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grubworm wrote:
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thehhwy wrote:
It seems that more and more people would like a system where loot rules can be enforced in whatever the party leader chooses it to be, timer FFA, instanced, Need before Greed, Master loot etc
Great Game! Glad to spend money in microtransactions/donations to games like this. And the Dev's/Mod's i've chatted with are all nice. A+
I think that making the loot that is everything Rare/Unique have a random lottery drop(like it seems to already have), and increase the pickup time allowed on it before it becomes open loot to all nearby; 10seconds minimum... Not everyone rocks a 5GB internet speed and a super pc, lag screws the timers over completely and when 40 items drop at once the fps twitch is enough to screw you out of loot.
i also like the idea of party leader changing loot rules. but make the timer longer on w/e you call that mode of loot drop because it is in need of some tweaking. 10seconds minimum length
*Thanks*
"farmin' foes & charmin' hoes..."
Last edited by Sublimehippy#0789 on Feb 22, 2013, 1:35:21 AM
The thing is that a timer is NEVER a solution to the problem many of us are pointing at, being the fact that we want the sole focus to be the team play and combat and not the loot.
Longer, shorter or no timer doesn't solve this. Instanced loot does.
And as many have pointed out, this should be a party option. And no, I can see no logical reason why I should pay extra for it.
Last edited by mercetron#6323 on Feb 22, 2013, 1:59:01 AM
"free-for-all" provokes anger, quarrels, dislikes, distrust, unease, discussions ... even more if you do not know the members of the party. Better as in torchlight, diablo or titan quest for my opinion.
On the other hand, people with better connections, better computers or without "international lag" (250ms) have an advantage. should take this into account.
Sorry for my English (translate.google).
The thing is that a timer is NEVER a solution to the problem many of us are pointing at, being the fact that we want the sole focus to be the team play and combat and not the loot.
Longer, shorter or no timer doesn't solve this. Instanced loot does.
And as many have pointed out, this should be a party option. And no, I can see no logical reason why I should pay extra for it.
A longer timer on some items would do a world of good for the game.
10 seconds is longer then some people realize. Get a stop watch and without looking at it, time how long you think 10 seconds is.
And before anyone says that longer timers will slow the game down... You do not have to wait to pick up your allocated loot. You can grab it anytime between .01 and 10 seconds with no issue. The only time you would have to wait is if you wanted to grab something that is not wanted by the originally assigned player. So the player looking for an upgrade will have to hang back a few extra seconds before looting, IDing, and comparing.
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Best solution that I have been able to come up with is to remove the timer on blue items. Leave the current timer of currency up to jewlers. Increase the base timer for rare items and currency Jewlers - Chaos. Further increase the base timer for unique items and high end currency
for every 5 seconds that the base timer was increased they should reduce the max distance timer by 2 seconds
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The thing is that a timer is NEVER a solution to the problem many of us are pointing at, being the fact that we want the sole focus to be the team play and combat and not the loot.
Longer, shorter or no timer doesn't solve this. Instanced loot does.
And as many have pointed out, this should be a party option. And no, I can see no logical reason why I should pay extra for it.
A longer timer on some items would do a world of good for the game.
10 seconds is longer then some people realize. Get a stop watch and without looking at it, time how long you think 10 seconds is.
The timer, regardless of length, still simply can't solve the "focus not solely on team play and combat" problem.
Lets see, put this summary of the current system by tremor:
Spoiler
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TremorAcePV wrote:
I'm going to explain how the current loot system works. One. More. Time.
The name that goes on the timer is based on a combination of distance and lag (and some other third thing that I don't know).
It's to create an even playing field. The problem is that lag is not constant. Sometimes there are spikes, so if you have a spike the moment an item drops, you can get your name on the timer even if you are right on top of it, rather than the ranged player behind you.
The name on the timer is the person with the LEAST chance to get it. That way, everyone theoretically has a chance. This fails practicaly, but not the point.
The current loot system does not distribute loot accordingly, it was made to give everyone a level playing field in a FFA loot system.
Meaning that it's intention was never to make sure the guy who's name was on the timer get the loot, but that no one should get it before he had a chance to.
Example of how this theoretically would work:
Loot drops. One player is far away and has a bit of lag. These two combined are greater than any other member of the group. His name is put on the timer. The time is set, considering his distance and lag, so that the moment before he gets to it, the timer ends. This means that everyone, assuming it's a good item, are on top of the item at the moment the timer ends and everyone has an even chance of getting it.
This means that your name on the timer does not make it yours. It only means you are the most disadvantaged person at the moment the item dropped. This changes sporadically as lag is not a constant, so if the person with the lowest chance to get the loot suddenly loses all lag the moment after the loot drops, he will get it before the timer goes off defeating the purpose of the timer.
That's how it works. That's why it's not a good system.
You can call it "yours" all you want. Until it's in your hands, timer irrelevant, it's not yours.
Now, I don't know what the third thing is that goes into it, but I came up with this understanding of the loot system based on posts by GGG. So dispute it if you want, but it's how it works.
and this response by magicrectangle
Spoiler
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magicrectangle wrote:
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TremorAcePV wrote:
You can call it "yours" all you want. Until it's in your hands, timer irrelevant, it's not yours.
It doesn't really matter whether they designed it to be a fair loot distribution system or not. What matters is that the majority of the community treats it that way. Intent is all well and good, but the game is about the players, and a great many players seem to like the idea of allocated loot. They like the idea so much that despite the current system being quite bad for that purpose, they still use it as such. Hence all of the "no ninja" groups.
and shake it with the wisdom of the dalai lama:
Spoiler
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DalaiLama wrote:
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TremorAcePV wrote:
I'm going to explain how the current loot system works. One. More. Time.
Now, I don't know what the third thing is that goes into it, but I came up with this understanding of the loot system based on posts by GGG. So dispute it if you want, but it's how it works.
I understand the concept behind the timer, and with some minor tweaking based off of their own server statistics, GGG could optimize the timer based on distances and lag times etc.
The real problem - the one that GGG "Can't win" is that they have introduced a new concept with the timer - the concept of "named loot".
GGG didn't create the problem with the timer. It was always there. It was there beceause enough players wanted a more even distribution of drops. That will not change - ever.
What the devs want seems to be clear. What the players want is clear too, despite the cacophony. They want both. GGG could peek at the people posting and see out of both sides who supports them more, but I suspect the answer again is both.
Is GGG really sacrificing the vision of their game to give the players both? GGG has given us both hardcore and default. They have given us both pvm and pvp (Though I do hope pvp has more options in the future). FFA and non-FFA is just another choice.
I recall Chaos runs where people took turns- if it was your turn, anything that dropped was yours if you wanted it.
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Now let's analyse this without any opinion.
If the players are evenly divided on this and even in their support for the game, then pleasing one group while annoying the other could lose GGG half their financial support.
Giving the players the choice of a few options at game creation shouldn't bother anyone should it? (ignoring the game slowing mechanics for the moment).
If the players are equally divided, then just as many people will choose to create and play in FFA games as non FFA won't they?
If the percentage of players choosing one side is seriously lopsided, than that too should tell GGG a few things.
Is one side more likely to support GGG over the long run? Is one type of player more dedicated? Is the social gamer or the hardcore gamer more likely to allow GGG to continue adding content and develop their game over the next ten years?
I don't have any data, but my gut instincts tell me that both types are likely to stick around for a well designed game.
If GGG can find a way to let the players choose, they can please both, and they will have twice the support and twice the game.
Personally, I'd like to see act 4 and 5 and 6 and more.
The timer was a good first attempt at finding a solution. I find the current incarnation exasperating at times - exploits aside.
After another month of playing, I suspect I'll have enough trustworthy people in my friend's list to not have to worry about FFA ever again. By the same token, there will be non of this "loot tension" nonsense in our groups, no matter what GGG decides.
My solution to this whole temporal chains in a tea cup fiasco?
1) Brainstorms a variety of solutions
2) freely raid the various "loot" threads for possible inclusions
3)Whittle them down to say the top 40 ideas.
4)discuss code/game mechanics feasibility and drop those that are too cumbersome.
5)take the top 10 of what's left and have the server send them out as a PM survey to all actively playing accounts.
6) take the responses and compare them against the Devs vision for the game long term and factor in how it might affect the company long term.
7) make a choice and roll it out on the Alpha server (with no disclosure agreements if they feel it needs it)
8) take the feedback from the Alpha server - mull it over and make a tough call.
9) move on to other important issues like why the new pants micro-transactions cause so much desynch.
So far, I've been very pleased with GGG's thoughtful manner of handling game design. I don't expect that this issue will be any different.
put this all together to a new general reddit post, summarizing all of this and instead of reinventing the wheel with the year long debate between FFA HC and Allocated Loot fans, focus on discussing actual ideas beeing able to solve the problems for both sides.
then relink the reddit post to this thread.
otherwise this thread will hit the 1k page mark, without any solution found.
And as i said before, the general problem is:
Either, the devs like their version of "loot tension", though its only restricted to public parties and comes with other flaws
=> in this case WE got to come up with something adding competition, realizing what Free For All should actually mean, to propose a better idea of how to achieve loot tension and replacing the current one along with its flaws.
OR they see that their version of "loot tension" is somewhat illogical, and thus have no problem with any solution found, pleasing the allocated loot fan club.
For the last, their are many proposals, coming down to perhaps a handful, about options, timer durations, lottery, loot grab-range, names on items after timer, invisible during timer duration ...and so on. To find something in between those ideas, IS NOT THE PROBLEM.
There has been however only one idea, the one in my signature, adressing the first possible decision of the GGG crew. THIS IS THE FUCKING PROBLEM! This is what needs more discussion and more ideas!
You can start by figuring out your own stance on dynamic, performance based loot allocation.
It the meantime, we might just add each other to the friendlists, finding more ppl to actually play by gentlemen, loot per name rules. ;)
(my chars names end by _DM)
EDIT: active link added. (forgot it this time, thx TehHammer)
competition game mode / loot allocation: http://redd.it/18eodl
