POE2 Spells are WAAAAY too superior compared to attack.

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iHiems#0168 wrote:

I don't understand. What attack skill are you taking for reference to say that + level to skill on gear isn't something someone playing attack cares about?

It's just math. The base damage for spells comes from the skill gems. The base damage from attacks comes from the weapon (usually the physical damage). Increasing skill gems, does not increase the base damage for the attack. Going from level 19 Lighting spear to level 25 increases the percent of the base damage the attack deals (327% to 438%)

https://poe2db.tw/us/Lightning_Spear

That damage is then increased further by all your additive and multiplicative damage increases. If the base damage is crap, the amount you get from the percent increase will also be crap. You want the highest base damage you can get FIRST, then if you have room, you go for other stuff.

https://www.poe2wiki.net/wiki/Modifier#Local_and_global_modifiers

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#% increased Physical Damage:
This local modifier directly modifies the weapon's base physical damage.

https://www.poe2wiki.net/wiki/Attack

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The base damage, attack speed and critical hit chance of an attack are determined using your weapon's stats unless a skill says otherwise.

Another way to think of it: A endgame caster can use Voltaic Staff as long as it has +6-7 skills levels and other stats. Nothing about their dps will change. But there is no combination of affixes that will ever make an Oak Greathammer viable at endgame.


TLDR: In order to get the same increase in attacks, that you get with +spell levels, you have to increase the weapons base physical damage.

idk man, did play spells all the time and it was ... okay, then after switching to attacks (bows and crossbows) -> it's SO much more comfortable to play and also stronger with less effort for gear (talking endgame here, not campaign)

so, i strongly disagree to the title

This is almost entirely a resultant playstyle perspective and people can have a very different opinion based on what "level" or how far into the endgame they've gone with either specific archetype.

As for leveling in the campaign you don't need "triple phys prefixes" on weapons lol. And even then, you can do just fine in early maps without having that "ultra GG" weapon. You just have to adjust your build for it. I mean, it's not going to hurt to have that triple-phys weapon, but it's certainly not necessary - there's plenty of tools in the toolbox for you to make it work. It just involves being a bit more creative and knowing where "good enough" lies to use it as an interim weapon. Usually that means you're using a weapon that's suitable for your character's level, and it has almost any combination of acceptably-tired attack prefixes.

It does have implications for how you manage the damage though, and it DOES take some reading and good decision-making to properly adjust, but that's basically the premise of this game.

It creates a scenario where you are more likely to need to use different support gems or jewels or tree nodes in the interim until you find your "desired" weapon prefixes for the end-game version of any build you have planned. But this is absolutely not holding back attacks vs spells - you just need to have the capability to be flexible in how you manage the damage you've been given.

When using spells, it's a bit more intuitive because your damage source is static - it's from the skill itself. You don't need to have any flexibility about whether your spell is going to be doing phys, fire, cold, or some combination, or to what magnitude, past choosing what spell you are using.

This makes it really straightforward for people using spells who are "following a build" because it reduces variability in the areas that are related to decision-making such as "what points to I put in the tree?" and "what support gem should I use?" and "what does a good wand/staff even look like?".

Both archetypes while leveling are still sensitive to the quality of drops, but when the damage source and type is static (spells), following a pre-ordained sequence of skill points and support gems is less likely to require adjustment because it does not need to respond to changes in damage type variability, and as long as your points/supports make sense, you'll be doing "good enough" damage for the campaign.

It also makes it a more forgiving skill choice for new players who are following a build. If they are new and not following a guide - they are still active in decision-making of "what points/supports do I use?" process - so they will be less likely to feel like they are suffering from bad weapon RNG if they choose to go the martial weapon route.

Someone accustomed to approaching leveling with a static damage source (ie. spell-centric) perspective - maybe perhaps they've always planned their spell builds, or followed one - will feel that leveling up as a martial weapon character is much more reliant on having good luck with weapon drops. But the truth is it's really just a different approach to managing resources in the game.

By the time you're in endgame, you'll definitely want those "required" affixes, but spell casters will need them as well, so it levels out.

A discussion about whether using spell skills vs attack skill is better for clearing or confronting game content at the top-level, in endgame, feels like way too general of a statement to make because of all the variability in game content, gear, and player capability. There's probably not one "correct" answer.

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darrenrob82#3531 wrote:

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Exilion99#5481 wrote:

Needing +5 gem Staffs are as easy to get +5 on Quarterstaffs, in which, +5 gem for spells are significantly better than for attack.

It's the second hardest suffix to roll. I'm not sure what you mean by easy?
It's less than 3% to get ANY two handed +skill levels. Getting +5-6 melee is 0.2% (+7 is 0.08%).

As easy as a Perfect Essence. Both Sorcery and Battle give the same value, and Perfect Essence have unlimited rolls anyway.

Obviously +6/7 are hard, for both.

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Exilion99#5481 wrote:

As easy as a Perfect Essence. Both Sorcery and Battle give the same value, and Perfect Essence have unlimited rolls anyway.

Obviously +6/7 are hard, for both.

I understand. I wouldn't consider using perfect essence easy. If it was greater essence, I would agree but perfect is a crap shoot. But in a trade league, if you're rich sure.

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darrenrob82#3531 wrote:

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Exilion99#5481 wrote:

As easy as a Perfect Essence. Both Sorcery and Battle give the same value, and Perfect Essence have unlimited rolls anyway.

Obviously +6/7 are hard, for both.

I understand. I wouldn't consider using perfect essence easy. If it was greater essence, I would agree but perfect is a crap shoot. But in a trade league, if you're rich sure.

Well, it's 100% success rate with 1/3 gamble mod replace. It's very good odd, and also, they aren't that expensive...like few div?

It's not like spamming chaos, or needing omens.

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karsey#2995 wrote:

When using spells, it's a bit more intuitive because your damage source is static - it's from the skill itself. You don't need to have any flexibility about whether your spell is going to be doing phys, fire, cold, or some combination, or to what magnitude, past choosing what spell you are using.

This makes it really straightforward for people using spells who are "following a build" because it reduces variability in the areas that are related to decision-making such as "what points to I put in the tree?" and "what support gem should I use?" and "what does a good wand/staff even look like?".

I agree with this. On attack builds I can go several levels with out increasing my gem level and still feel strong. On casters I feel really weak if my gem levels aren't kept up.

+1

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Exilion99#5481 wrote:

Let's begin with the problem that have persisted since POE1.

Spells, unlike attack, have their base damage scales of gem level, which is so much more powerful and cheaper too attain.

Attack uses martial weapon.

Attack base damage basically extremely dependent on weapon, or they will absolutely tickle whereas Spells are so much more forgiving because all their base are bounded to skill gem and they can still scale via tree and supports for decent amount.

If you tried SSF, the different between the two is huge as it is extremely hard upgrade martial weapon in campaign, because you literally need near perfect mods, EXACTLY the one you want, like phys.

You need triple phy or triple elementals among all mods.

In campaign, attacks feels like it's design for us to ONLY use magic weapon because rare weapon could lasts for like 20 levels before you could find an upgrade.

In POE2, conversion only convert base damage.

Attacks typically divided into two, Physicals and Elementals.
Yes chaos exist, but usually purely conversion, which lies under the Physical umbrella, along with converted elementals.

Basically, Attacks that that Physical or Specific conversion requires Triple Physical prefix.

Plain elementals have to get Triple elementals weapon.

The worst part are they are all in the prefix slot and getting the right one are extremely difficult.

Now let's see some spells weapon in poe2.

Some caster's weapon literally are divided per TYPE. Which mean a Fire Staves can get 200% spells damage and 200% Fire damage. This is true to all spell-type weapon, which makes getting their Prefix, vastly easier.

Further more, since "extra damage gain as" is the 2nd step of damage conversion, Spells takes full benefits from it's own base damage from skill and any extra from conversion. They are also readily avialable with Perfect Essence. This typically cannot be done with attacks because triple prefix requires much more perfect setup, just to get base damage.

Spells prefix literally are so much more forgiving have more options and what ever rolls they end up with, it would still be usable.

Martial weapon simply does not any of these luxury.

Worst are the fact there's also %increase elemental mod in martial weapon which absolutely useless outside of Elemental Expression. This and "extra", all 3 are basically dead mod for weapons, because again, attacks do not have base damage.

Don't forgets, many spells also have much higher base Crit compared to shitass base martial weapon that are not warstaves.

And then there's speed penalty for many melee skills. Since attack skills are bundled together with specific weapons, why not just simplify thing and show exactly how slow those weapon really are. No need to divide things into two portion coz they are basically fixed together.

UGH.

How about just give us Fire Weapon, Lightning Weapon, Cold Weapon, Chaos Weapon and a new Physical only weapon?

Same treatment with Spells yea?

+1
Only way to effectively play and farm EFFIECENTLY and IN A TIMELY MATTER without straight broken gear + 100 divine investments, Are spell casters

No other class comes close to the level of power as a spell caster while levelling through campaign and entering into endgame

I've been a melee player since 0.1 until finally caving this season because it was just such a painful slog no different then previous seasons
I finally grew tired of it, put the game down and almost gave up this season

Finally came back to try spell casting specifically Oracle and holy shit is it a joke compared to melee and attacks, Survivability is far better, Damage scaling is way easier, I was still using some gear from the campaign when first entering higher tier maps and some t15s untill I finally upgraded to be up to par, I had no trouble on SSF Oracle working my way up to T15's and even killing zarokh(have never previously been able to kill zarokh on any melee class, only trial master) So trials of sekhemas are legit out of the picture for most average players playing melee, guess no time lost jewels for melee :(

Spell casting in its current state is a joke compared to melee and attacks

I just want to say, I`ve played with a bow for about 220 hours and with a spear for 35ish hours.

Then I tried a spellcaster for the first time, leveling with Cont+ED into varashta sand/fire.

It felt like cheating. Never have I ever attained such power and resilience without even bothering about gear. Throw a couple resists on your gear and delete the campaign with a sceptre from act1.

Spellcasters are busted. Do more damage and tank more with ES (which is busted too) despite dressing in rags.

And from what I gather, true melee boys suffer even more than spear/bow.