Is the primary purpose of PoE supposed to be a "slot machine"?

lol. Yeah POE fans like the slot machine and don't see it as a problem. I think it's best to just accept it and decide if you want to keep playing a slot machine or not.

"

darrenrob82#3531 wrote:

lol. Yeah POE fans like the slot machine and don't see it as a problem. I think it's best to just accept it and decide if you want to keep playing a slot machine or not.

Perhaps so, but I still find it extremely sad... I do really like build experimentation and creation but the application part of it just isn't fun if you're not into this slot machine thing as the sole purpose.. and as a result it quickly deflates any kind of curiosity I have towards build ideas I have and would have liked to try otherwise.

Not to mention that, if that's the focus, the build plans automatically have to lean towards what's more efficient and fast rather then fun to play and just good.

The weird part is, I think most people... including those that do actually like the slot machine element as the main purpose... get bored of it really fast too... why else would PoE have one of the steepest player drop off curve in the whole gaming industry?

I think GGG had a unique chance to elevate the genre to new heights, but sadly, due to many errors of their own as well, in how they approached the whole thing... (relying too much on PoE1 CC's opinions, including in testing at exile con; not managing resources properly causing direct tensions between PoE1 and PoE2 players; and even making the game a direct sequel to PoE1 and calling it PoE2 as a result setting up expectations) ... but also just the huge pushback from the existing player base that apparently mostly want the slot machine part of it and a bit of the builds part but nothing else...

I think the solution can be pretty simple. If the majority of players agree that this slot machine system should really be controlled, then the solution can be to quit the game until they fix it.

As long as there are people who will support this madness, then we will not get rid of this gacha system, and the game will eventually die in the end.

Modern ARPG players are gambling addicts that like to pretend they are playing a video game by blowing up in the screen with their 0-1 button builds.

It's why all the POE1 players(mainly streamers) are so loud and vocal about how you actually need to press buttons in this game to kill enemies and play the game.

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IonSugeRau1#1069 wrote:

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JODYHiGHR0LLER#6171 wrote:

Chat GPT ass post lol.

Welcome to every game with loot ever, I guess?

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vexorian#9572 wrote:

Area llm user discovers ARPGS

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The_Song#4903 wrote:

Imma be real with you chief.

Every looter game is primarily a slot machine.
PoE isn't special. It's the genre in it's entirety.

Is it though? Tell me at least one other game where loot is considered more important then the gameplay itself?

*Inhale*

Borderlands, Destiny, Warframe, First Descendent, Diablo, Last Epoch, Division,
most mmorpgs, Lost Ark, Wolcen, Wonderlands, Enter the Gungeon, Risk of Rain, the entire auto battler genre, Soulframe, and I just ran out of entertainment value from listing so I'll stop short, leave a couple hundred titles off to save time.

Do bear in mind though, acknowledging the fact that a game or genre is primarily built to be a slot machine, playing it just for the slot machine, and actively wanting it to be a slot machine, are three different things.

PoE 1 and 2 are both, above all else, slot machines. That is not what I play them for.
I played PoE1, and will now play PoE2 but probably never 1 anymore, because I genuinely like the gameplay, story, and mechanics beyond the slot machine. I wish the game would be less chance based, but to enjoy the parts I'm here for I have to accept the presence of the parts I'm not.

It's the same, roughly, as it is for me playing a game like Sea of Thieves.
I like the cartoony pirate PvE of SoT, and would prefer the game not have other player crews trying to PvP, but to get the part I want I have to work with the part I don't.
I want to enjoy the gameplay of fighting through maps in PoE with a build I made myself. I have to worth with the slot machine to do that. Same with ever other looter game.

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The_Song#4903 wrote:

*Inhale*

Borderlands, Destiny, Warframe, First Descendent, Diablo, Last Epoch, Division,
most mmorpgs, Lost Ark, Wolcen, Wonderlands, Enter the Gungeon, Risk of Rain, the entire auto battler genre, Soulframe, and I just ran out of entertainment value from listing so I'll stop short, leave a couple hundred titles off to save time.

Do bear in mind though, acknowledging the fact that a game or genre is primarily built to be a slot machine, playing it just for the slot machine, and actively wanting it to be a slot machine, are three different things.

PoE 1 and 2 are both, above all else, slot machines. That is not what I play them for.
I played PoE1, and will now play PoE2 but probably never 1 anymore, because I genuinely like the gameplay, story, and mechanics beyond the slot machine. I wish the game would be less chance based, but to enjoy the parts I'm here for I have to accept the presence of the parts I'm not.

It's the same, roughly, as it is for me playing a game like Sea of Thieves.
I like the cartoony pirate PvE of SoT, and would prefer the game not have other player crews trying to PvP, but to get the part I want I have to work with the part I don't.
I want to enjoy the gameplay of fighting through maps in PoE with a build I made myself. I have to worth with the slot machine to do that. Same with ever other looter game.

Awesome! Great Examples! Let's talk about those examples because I do have some experience with a bunch of them!

Borderlands, Warframe, Destiny and probably Last Descendant too are all shooters to my knowledge with a bit of melee in between. All of these games require quite a decent level of skill and attention to play. And I am certain everyone plays them primarily for that reason, for the combat/gameplay. Now let's pretend they only care about the loot and don't care at all about the shooter aspect of the game... well their respective player bases would be asking for an equivalent to "1 button/0 button builds" as PoE1 players do... I reckon the closest thing to that would be auto-aim? Have you seen people ask for something like that in these games? Would you ever see them asking for something like that?

I'm quite the WoW veteran.. at least in the past, and I've played or tried numerous other mmorpgs along the way, so about MMORPGs I can tell you from the start that combat/gameplay is very important for those. And it's only gotten more important as many of them have moved towards an action combat system.

Obviously, you will never hear those player bases ask for 1 button gameplay, but even if we go beyond that... I don't think you'll ever hear anyone ask for ... say... to have the ability to wipe entire screens of enemies with one ability that they can repeat without a cooldown? Maybe an ultimate ability with a hefty cooldown or buildup towards using it but never a repeat ability.

I won't talk about the ARPG's you've mentioned because they all essentially have the same formula more or less.

Auto-battlers I don't think we need to talk about as they are clearly made for mobile gaming, and they're decent at what they're meant to be. Not really comparable with everything else here.

Anyway, I think you get what I'm trying to say.

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The_Song#4903 wrote:

Do bear in mind though, acknowledging the fact that a game or genre is primarily built to be a slot machine, playing it just for the slot machine, and actively wanting it to be a slot machine, are three different things.

Good point, my problem was with those that actively want it to be a slot machine, and have in fact successfully managed to sway GGG towards that goal quite a long time ago. It is very clear to me that GGG had other intentions beforehand.

Even in this next patch I can see how old intentions towards a more engaging combat experience are being reverted into less and less exciting options. Like this change, for example:



Warrior skills are also a really good example of the old philosophy/intentions they had before.

As for the part where you're talking about enduring some aspects you don't like for the sake of the ones you do, I've already tried that and it only gets me so far... specifically until the endgame where I happen to lose all interest. Though, as things progress in the direction it currently seems to go, it will happen even faster.

"

Perhaps so, but I still find it extremely sad...

POE1 audience has slot-machine mentality. New players in POE2 though don't have it. So it is up to GGG to decide where to go. If POE2 becomes POE1 in a couple of years, all new people will quit. And probably this is when they will terminate POE1. If they will have balls to take a new direction, slot-mentality will remain in POE1 with all its old players.

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UnholyKirin#7925 wrote:

if u dont like hunting for loot maybe arpgs are not for u them

But video games are for you if you like 0 button afk builds, right?

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IonSugeRau1#1069 wrote:

I reckon the closest thing to that would be auto-aim? Have you seen people ask for something like that in these games? Would you ever see them asking for something like that?

Consistently, yes. "I get to be a turret that aimbots the screen" is a commonly desired and requested gameplay option. Some of those games even have it, and some players make a point of building for it.
Arbitrarily selected minor examples,
Borderlands Presequel has a character where their ability really is just using a super aimbot on a buffed gun, and players regular build for keeping it active as much as possible.
Not to mention every Borderlands having a character who summons a turret or equivalent.
Warframe has a lot of channeled or duration abilities that more or less just make death happen around you passively, and players constantly build those frames for literally constant uptime of those abilities, then just run through the level not fighting or stand in place not fighting and everything dies.

"

IonSugeRau1#1069 wrote:

I'm quite the WoW veteran.. at least in the past, and I've played or tried numerous other mmorpgs along the way, so about MMORPGs I can tell you from the start that combat/gameplay is very important for those. And it's only gotten more important as many of them have moved towards an action combat system.

I too, played WoW in the past, and various other mmorpgs.
Those most fitting statement I can make about their staple gameplay, is that they don't have gameplay. These tab target mmos where you could get away with not seeing the screen as all you do is press buttons on cooldown rotation, with no skill expression, and your effectiveness is entirely based on your gear.

"

IonSugeRau1#1069 wrote:

Obviously, you will never hear those player bases ask for 1 button gameplay, but even if we go beyond that... I don't think you'll ever hear anyone ask for ... say... to have the ability to wipe entire screens of enemies with one ability that they can repeat without a cooldown?

That's just what Warframe and most arpgs are. Utter power trips where you can press one button and there's no longer enemies on screen, and be ready to do it again by the time there's any more enemies around.

"

IonSugeRau1#1069 wrote:

I won't talk about the ARPG's you've mentioned because they all essentially have the same formula more or less.

Yup. Sure do. the genre is the genre I guess. At least this one has wasd, I get tired of mouse movement.

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IonSugeRau1#1069 wrote:

Auto-battlers I don't think we need to talk about as they are clearly made for mobile gaming, and they're decent at what they're meant to be. Not really comparable with everything else here.

Not every autobattler is a nonsense mobile game. Some of them don't even have a mobile version, just a pc game that's trying to be a real game, sometimes succeeding.
Loop Hero, War Pips, technically autochess games like TFT are autobattlers.

"

IonSugeRau1#1069 wrote:

my problem was with those that actively want it to be a slot machine, and have in fact successfully managed to sway GGG towards that goal quite a long time ago. It is very clear to me that GGG had other intentions beforehand.

Even in this next patch I can see how old intentions towards a more engaging combat experience are being reverted into less and less exciting options. Like this change, for example:



Warrior skills are also a really good example of the old philosophy/intentions they had before.

Yea, it has been a problem that poe1 fans are upset that poe2 is supposed to be a different game, instead of more poe1, and have been pushing hard to make it more poe1. I hope they fail, what poe2 was supposed to be is a lot better than just have more poe1.

"

IonSugeRau1#1069 wrote:

As for the part where you're talking about enduring some aspects you don't like for the sake of the ones you do, I've already tried that and it only gets me so far... specifically until the endgame where I happen to lose all interest. Though, as things progress in the direction it currently seems to go, it will happen even faster.

The majority of the people who play this game either don't finish the campaign, or stop upon finishing the campaign, then to again next league.
Something something player statistics.

"

The_Song#4903 wrote:

Consistently, yes. "I get to be a turret that aimbots the screen" is a commonly desired and requested gameplay option. Some of those games even have it, and some players make a point of building for it.
Arbitrarily selected minor examples,
Borderlands Presequel has a character where their ability really is just using a super aimbot on a buffed gun, and players regular build for keeping it active as much as possible.
Not to mention every Borderlands having a character who summons a turret or equivalent.
Warframe has a lot of channeled or duration abilities that more or less just make death happen around you passively, and players constantly build those frames for literally constant uptime of those abilities, then just run through the level not fighting or stand in place not fighting and everything dies.

I would be inclined to believe you on these, especially that I haven't played any of them in many years. That being said, if you know of many forum posts that reflect the largely same attitude as in PoE or dev interviews where people ask for those specific things or devs are being pressured into them, I'd be curious to see them.

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The_Song#4903 wrote:

I too, played WoW in the past, and various other mmorpgs.
Those most fitting statement I can make about their staple gameplay, is that they don't have gameplay. These tab target mmos where you could get away with not seeing the screen as all you do is press buttons on cooldown rotation, with no skill expression, and your effectiveness is entirely based on your gear.

While I do very much agree with you that tab targeting is very outdated and a limitation of the times those games were created in, I still don't think it's close to the "1 button/0 button build" type thing and "instant screen clearing" demands or expectancies of PoE1 players.

That being said, I was also predominantly more interested in PVP in WoW so it would make sense that we've had somewhat different experiences there. PvE combat was definitely much less interesting or engaging then PvP was. I still vividly remember some tryhard mage guy (I even remember his name lol) doing duels in front of Ogg naked just to prove how good he is even without gear, and he did win quite a lot of times despite that.

So I don't really agree that your effectiveness is entirely based on your gear. Of course any game that has gear, it is an integral part of it. Even Souls games have those too and they do matter quite a lot. In the end there is a balance between the two... for some more towards the mechanical aspect and for other more towards the gear itself.. but I'd say most good games have a decent balance between the two... something like this in either way:



Meanwhile in PoE it's more like this:



But besides that, like I've mentioned before, almost all new MMO's have completely abandoned tab targeting for action combat. and PoE2 is very much a new gen game so it has no reason to run by the same restrictions or rules of the past and it's limitations. Just like Jonathan said a couple of times things like "We couldn't do this, this and that before in the past but now we can".

The only one that I can think of that's still stuck in the past with tab targeting at least to some extent is the (possible scam) game named "Ashes of creation" or as me and a friend like to joke " Creation of Ashes".

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The_Song#4903 wrote:

The majority of the people who play this game either don't finish the campaign, or stop upon finishing the campaign, then to again next league.
Something something player statistics.

While that is true, I think reasons are various for many people. Regardless I do wonder what conclusion will GGG have for those results. If I recall correctly, the general consensus in PoE1 for player drop off was that the game is "too hard to get into" or "not new player friendly"... and while I do agree that both of those are true... I most certainly don't agree that it was the main reason or the only reason. I'm sure a lot of people dropped off because they didn't find it fun to play, especially if those people didn't have much interest in build creation like I did for example... which is honestly pretty much the only thing that kept me going to some extent.

So, I do wonder if GGG will come to that same conclusion again even after making the game much more accessible then before to new players. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

To that effect... I've always wondered why GGG never does player/user surveys. IMO they're such an easy to do thing and such a useful tool, especially for a game in EA. A lot of people don't actually go on the forums, so their voices will never really be heard.