3.26 needs massive meaningful balance changes !

I think your memory is off there. LS was really popular after 3.16 for two or three leagues but then it got nerfed significantly and wasn't used much until the latest changes pushed it to the top again.

The reasons for stuff being meta is that streamers make their shit popular by well, streaming. For the most part it's a matter of popularity, not power and it wouldn't even be an issue if people knew how to make builds themselves rather than copying what the streamers do. I thought you'd understand that by now but i guess not.

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Baharoth15#0429 wrote:

I think your memory is off there. LS was really popular after 3.16 for two or three leagues but then it got nerfed significantly and wasn't used much until the latest changes pushed it to the top again.

The reasons for stuff being meta is that streamers make their shit popular by well, streaming. For the most part it's a matter of popularity, not power and it wouldn't even be an issue if people knew how to make builds themselves rather than copying what the streamers do. I thought you'd understand that by now but i guess not.

Yes, it took a break from the META until the superiority of its mechanics brought it back.

Your attempt at being patronizing here just looks dumb. Streamers play LS because it's strong and versatile (it double-hits in melee range, it clears screens and it has one of the best Vaal portions). While popularity and accessibility are factors in what makes a skill META, it always boils down to power. You've already agreed to the fact that LS is up to twice as strong as the next best melee skills, god knows how many times better it is than the third best melee skills. You've even agreed that nerfing LS would be fine, so I seriously don't know why you keep debating.

I asked for a nerf to the outliers, not a nerf on everything. Being against that just because you, for some strawman reasons, fear that they'll nerf everything is irrelevant.

Yep, if its gonna be another league of Hexblast starter, then change to LS, some people wont even bother coming back and some will leave very fast.
Bring back the massive balance changes that were pages long and made everyone frantically thinking about new builds instead playing same thing for the 56th time.

What i actually said was this:

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I am not disputing that LS is better than many/most other melee skills if only for the fact that it's essentially a ranged skill with all the perks that brings. Whether it's "substantial" is up to definition.

and this:

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Usually it will be factor 1,5 or 2 at most which i'd consider fairly reasonable.

That is not the same as this:

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You've already agreed to the fact that LS is up to twice as strong as the next best melee skills, god knows how many times better it is than the third best melee skills.

Those are completely different statements. Talk about strawmans.

Streamers play it because it's strong and versatile yes, but they play other stuff too because it's also strong and versatile. Most of them leagestarted slams, Frostblades of Katabasis was high ranked throughout the entire league, same for Lacerate. Not to mention MSoZ. You putting LS on a pedastal is really just that. The skill is good no doubt, better than many others even but it's far from the best or even outstanding overall.

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I asked for a nerf to the outliers, not a nerf on everything. Being against that just because you, for some strawman reasons, fear that they'll nerf everything is irrelevant.

This is honestly rich coming from you. After all that complaining you've been doing for years about how bad melee is. If i end up being right and they do nerf more than just LS you'll be one of the first to start complaining again how they killed melee.

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Baharoth15#0429 wrote:

This is honestly rich coming from you. After all that complaining you've been doing for years about how bad melee is. If i end up being right and they do nerf more than just LS you'll be one of the first to start complaining again how they killed melee.

Why is that rich? I've advocated for melee buffs for years, sure, because melee as a whole has been crap for a long time. It got buffed. It is alright. But it's sad when 'most' melee skills get overshadowed by one or two skills.

You seem to take this personal somehow, and I don't get it. We agree; nerfing LS is/would be fine.

This post seriously underestimates the power of QoL....the difference between tedium and FUN is HUGE (and also very small).

Especially on an older game with a "track record", QoL can reinvigorate the game MASSIVELY all on its own.

Take the "base game" that we have had for years: why are we still here? Because its GOOD on its own. Sure, new content helps, but only if the base is solid.

Now, if they modernize and streamline all of that? It will "play" and "feel" like a completely new game. Where there was once frustration, tension, and anger in the process....there won't be. Or there will be far less. That is absolutely invaluable to a player's experience across a long time, and replaying the same 99% content for the thousandth time.

If you need any proof, look at some of the most popular D2 modern mods, or even D2R. What actually changed in that game? ONLY QoL. And it brought an ancient 25 year old game BACK.

I am happy with the QOL updates. Nice to get some new shortcuts, removes some of the tedious bits.

On the LS topic, not sure how long ago it was, I'll say 6 or 7 years maybe, I used Jugg Mjolnir LS no-crit and it was awesome. But then it wasn't. I don't remember the exact nerfs, but it fell off. I haven't used it since then. Afterwards, I Was hooked on minions, then soulrend, toxic arrow, and now finally power siphon.

Wow, it's been a long road. I really do miss my 20c minion build wrecking end game. That was a high point.

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Phrazz#3529 wrote:

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Baharoth15#0429 wrote:

This is honestly rich coming from you. After all that complaining you've been doing for years about how bad melee is. If i end up being right and they do nerf more than just LS you'll be one of the first to start complaining again how they killed melee.

Why is that rich? I've advocated for melee buffs for years, sure, because melee as a whole has been crap for a long time. It got buffed. It is alright. But it's sad when 'most' melee skills get overshadowed by one or two skills.

You seem to take this personal somehow, and I don't get it. We agree; nerfing LS is/would be fine.

I just find it incredibly annoying and exasperating having to deal with the same ridiculous statements over and over again.

LS being the most popular skill this league does NOT make it the best skill and it's certainly not twice as powerful as the next best.

If you want to have twice the damage you'll need to compare it to bottom tier skills like regular cleave or infernal blow. LS has roughly 900% damage effectiveness. Even "trash" skills like sweep, heavy strike and glacial hammer have 664, 746 and 622 damage effectiveness respectively and that's assuming you do nothing to build around them. Now you can go and throw a Nimis in and think you got a point only to realise that the other build now has 200 divines to spend on damage improvements. That will NOT end with twice the damage, not even remotely close. Not even if you add vaal LS into the mix.

You want change, fine i understand. Can't say i feel the same but i can understand. But the reasons you bring out are just plain false, starting with the "4 times better than any other skill", followed by "Meta are meta mostly because of power" and last but not least "LS has been meta for years now".

Not one of them holds any water whatsoever if you look at the facts. That's why i am refuting them. I personally don't give a damn about LS viability so i am fine with it getting nerfed but that doesn't mean i believe it overperforms to a degree where it deserves that.

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Baharoth15#0429 wrote:

twice as powerful

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Baharoth15#0429 wrote:

twice the damage

I hope you realize that those two aren't equal, right? I'm not talking about pure damage here, I'm talking about "powerful" and "best", and there's more to a skill than just pure damage effectiveness. Moving the goalpost here isn't going to change that. And did you factor in the Vaal part of LS in your calculations? What makes LS so strong, is so much more than just damage effectiveness. The best way to nerf LS would be to remove the double-hit part, letting it serve as a very good clear skill, while being less good at single target (just like FB, a skill that doesn't have a double-hit part, nor does it have a Vaal part).

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LS being the most popular skill this league does NOT make it the best skill

I agree, it's the other way around; being the best melee skill makes it the most popular one. What is the best melee skill in your eyes, if it isn't LS? MSoTZ? DSoA?

Well said Phrazz.

Power is not equal to damage. "Power" has many factors: all-rounding, (yes) dps, scalability, etc. all play in.

And LS is EASILY twice as (if not more) powerful as nearly every other melee skill, at a similar investment level.

That's not to say there aren't many GOOD melee skills to use, such as slams flicker and all sorts of others. But compared to LS, they don't hold up in as much categories as LS does.


TBH, LS shouldn't exist. Smite and Static Strike should be the ONLY "aoe" lightning melee strike skill. Considering there are already numerous projectile-ish lightning spells and multiple lightning bow skills, there shouldn't ALSO be a lightning projectile melee skill.