The reason End Game sucks in almoast every ARPG
" Have to say this is spot on for me,in today's busy world not everyone has eight hours a day to play. Some of us after work, kids etc are lucky to get a couple hours a night, that being said upgrades or even just tiny improvements should not be a month apart.So I believe the devs don't get it fully or need to say we don't care if we make money or the game tanks, that we made this game for the hardcore only and are cool with a very small population. You know designed right everyone could have their cake and eat it too. Also allowing multi boxers will be the death of this economy if it isn't already and don't say there are only a couple of people doing it. Also @Boem they said the level cap was 100 what do you think people are going to try and do. If the game still has acts to come cap the level max at between 60-70 period, problem solved. Just like an MMO with at 60 cap, then an expansion comes out in 2 years then it's 70 cap etc. Every day you may make progress. Every step may be fruitful. Yet there will stretch out before you an ever-lengthening, ever-ascending, ever-improving path. You know you will never get to the end of the journey. But this, so far from discouraging, only adds to the joy and glory of the climb. Last edited by necromuso#3475 on May 6, 2013, 11:09:47 PM
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" I couldn't agree more. But actually there is a quite easy solution. And the devs implementing new skills all the time supports this in my view: Constantly rerolling characters. This way you feel the steps (or growing in power of your characters) all the time. Endgame always was smaller steps. Those are for people who like to bond with one (or just a few) character(s). As long as you keep rerolling and actually like it, you'll never really leave the "frequent step system". Of course one might get sad, to have to abandon the latest "project" once one is too high a level and the frequency of steps starts to diminish. Ideally, there would be frequent improvement even in late-game. But that's just not as easy as gaining powers through leveling alone. Skillpoints, new gems and all this stuff is a steady growth of power for your character and is hard to mimic in endgame. I doubt endgame can ever feel as rewarding as leveling can, steps would have to be too frequent, how could you possibly manage to do that? You can't replace your equipment all the time. You'll reach the best level rather quickly (or have it just outside of your grasp - as for most people). So yeah, the easiest way to keep this feeling of growth up is to just keep leveling. You'll get more and more leveling gear, making each new project stronger. Although, this sounds like a valid thing to do, and I personally am quite the "altoholic", you'll still reach a point where this gets boring. And that's where new content comes into play. |
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" I liked this part of your post. And agreed that shadow of death adds adventure in HC more so than in default league, but even in default you can roll some Preeeeetty adventurous maps. Maybe they need to add a new level 78 map 'random seed map' that can potentially roll any of the other map types, and you dont know what map type until you go into the map. Adventure for all! (or the slect few that find a level 78 map at any rate :p) Hey...is this thing on? Last edited by LostForm#2813 on May 6, 2013, 3:53:21 PM
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Well, the essence of this issue is in what draws people to aRPGs in most cases: the loot.
You get a sword that does 10 damage. You find an axe that does 20 damage. OH MY, a bow drops that gives 40 damage! WOOT The problem comes at the end game. If the highest damage on a weapon is 600 and you have a 580 weapon, there's not much else to go. Either the game gives you that final step, teh 600, and you sit there with no place to go, or the game holds back the 600 making you hunt for it. aRPGs typically take the second route as the first leaves the person with nothing else to do. I've felt that. D1's King Sword of Haste.. the ultimate weapon for melee players. I went on lots, and LOTS of laz runs for it. At first, the loot was interesting as I'd get new upgrades. However, I eventually found two weapons: a King's Sword of Brutality (not AS good as a Haste but close) and a regular Sword of Haste. Almost as good as the top sword. Not quite, so I kept running. However, no other drop could compare as the only thing better at this point is the KSOH. If I abandoned the search, I'd have no choice but to say "I'm the top. I'm done." Since there was no point to that, I kept searching. Then I got it.... then "I'm the top. I'm done." What saved me? I stopped the hunt and turned to 'fun'. I took on builds that weren't aiming to be the bset but would instead present challenges. Use the wrong weapons, the wrnog spells. A lot of the bulids I did could barely pass normal and were guarenteed to fail in upper difficultlies. However, I had more fun running them as I could never reach 'the top' due to the artifical difficulty. However, that wasn't working under normal aRPG concepts. You see the same now. Most of the complaints are people with 5Ls who want 6Ls. There's no other links. What DO they do after they get their gear. Reroll? They can reroll NOW. Some don't even touch maps: They finish Piety then reroll with a new challenge. However, if you go for 'the loot' you hit the wall. Either you hit it early and become a farmer, or hit it at the end and 'win' the game..and be done. We can put in a map that never ends: always gets stronger no matter what. However two things will happen: 1. Complaints about needing the 'best gear' to advance. Since it never stops getting stronger, the demand onyour gear increases. Eventually you'll hit the point where NOTHING but that 'KSOH' will do. Anyone with less will rage. They do so now with the map system. 2. The 'loot' still ends. The KSOH of PoE exists. After that, there's NOTHING new loot wise. If we make the neverending dungeon, you'll hit the point where the challenge is there but the loot is not. The result is a dungeon you don't have to do for better gear, in a game where your reason to travel dungeons is to get better gear. A few will like it. Most will ignore it. If you DO put 'better loot' at the end: a prize for completing that hard section..well.. we did that. We call it Maps. People complain now because you need 'THE BEST GEAR' to complete it and that you need to complete it to get THE BESTEST GEAR. A puzzle isn't it? Leaves you with questions. Questions, questions. (enjoy the Gemling queen dialogue going on in your head. :D) Personally, I'm handling this the way I handled other aRPGs. Once I get near the top, I'll go back and raise the challenge. I'll raise it until getting past Normal is more brutal than Merciless. Then the fight to get to Merciless. Then I'll keep going until I just run out of options. Hopefully tha won't be for a long while. There's a fraction of players who like consistency and predictability: killing boss X will yield item Y.
This game really isn't for people like that. This game is for people who'll do the same area over and again because they know..., a Mirror can drop anywhere, anytime. - CharanJaydemyr |
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" agreed 100%. A well written more verbose version of Masiquer's take on it: 'It is one thing to be an adventurer at higher levels, but it is entirely another to be a farmer. ' the 'random seed' map wouldnt be an ever increasing mob power type mechanic, the mobs would still be capped, and i suppose it could still be a level 77 map, but the entire idea would be the possibility of the adventure of the unknown in a farmer's familiar world. Hey...is this thing on? Last edited by LostForm#2813 on May 6, 2013, 4:24:27 PM
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the reason end game sucks is becasue ITS THE END. once you beat it there is nothing else to do. This will never change. This elusive end game that keeps everyone busy with new things to do and not get boring after 100 hours doesn't exist and it never will. Its a goddamn unicorn. The problem is people don't take breaks from games anymore they just play them constantly until they hate them and then proceed to shit all over the devs for the most nitpicky, inconsequential crap. Well this is at least true of any online RPG that has any persistence. These people play for hundreds of hours and when they run out of things to do they act like the game is a huge failure even though up until that point they were on the forums telling everyone this is the best game ever made!( I have seen a few people here make that transition already) End game could be better yes I am not trying to argue its perfect but it will never be what you want it to be. There will always be a point when you just get sick of it even if tomorrow everything you ever wanted got put in the game, most of you would be back here in a month with the same complaints. Just play something else for a while after all variety is the spice of life. I mean even having a steak dinner every day would get boring after a while. play another game for the next month or two then come back, roll a new character, and fall in love with the game all over again! All things are better in moderation. 4
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Well, I don't see that as fixing the issue really.
However, 'as is' having a 'random' map, perhaps instead of making it rare, make it common and make it double whatever effects you get. Thus if the affixes would normally give you an 100% boost, it gives a 200% boost. However, the 'affix' is random and you don't see it. And no 'make this rare and this common on random maps'. all afixes are an equal chance of coming out. Only thing you know is how many affixes are there. Thus you can get easy access to a 'random' map, or you can work to get a specific map with the affixes you want. Again though, it won't get anywhere near fixing the issue. However, as an idea in itself.. I love it. There's a fraction of players who like consistency and predictability: killing boss X will yield item Y.
This game really isn't for people like that. This game is for people who'll do the same area over and again because they know..., a Mirror can drop anywhere, anytime. - CharanJaydemyr |
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Its called being burnt out. Stop playing the SAME GAME for 10 hours a day, every day with a tunnel vision for only one thing and you'll suddenly enjoy this game (and all other games in general) a whole lot more.
The problem doesn't lie with this game. It lies with the community as a whole. I don't particularly like what gaming has become. Since when did it stop being about fun? |
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" I will admit, there's a touch of this here. What happened to the folks who believe in the Beyond Naked Way? Why does a 0 life node Claw Witch HAVE to be viable and if it's not, why not just do it anyway and see how far you go? bah, Myself I'm having a hard to finding builds that are lulzy but unviable. Too many can be tweaked to be made to work. Closest I've found so far is the 'melee Elemental Equilibrium 2H'. Once I get away from my Spark witch. It's cookie cutter but it IS fun :P. I just needed to stop trying to wedge minions in there. There's a fraction of players who like consistency and predictability: killing boss X will yield item Y.
This game really isn't for people like that. This game is for people who'll do the same area over and again because they know..., a Mirror can drop anywhere, anytime. - CharanJaydemyr |
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PoE's end game system is actually quite good. Most of the complains deal with players becoming bored or frustrated with the end-game experience and item grind, but this has little to do with the system and more to do with the content and challenge the system is employing. However, the problem isn't the grind itself. The problem is that by end-game the grind is the only focus left.
The experience and challenge become arbitrary and boring. In my opinion the following would help end-game a lot without actually requiring much development. - Maps need to be innately larger with higher mob density. - Mobs in maps need to be buffed significantly in mobility, hp, and mitigation. - Bosses need a lot more HP and mitigation with proportionate increases to their drops. In other words maps need to be bigger, take longer, be more dangerous, and be proportionately rewarding. This way the experience changes from chaining maps to "Can I beat this map?". |
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