Death Penalty System - EXP Loss in particular

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

Oh, so losing everything including EXP and wanting that EXP loss removed somehow translates for you into "expect to be rewarded for it"?

Yes. Because if you die and you do not lose XP and instead keep it, you are basically rewarded with XP for/despite dying.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

Dude, for the n-th time: nobody gives a shit about one-shots.
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You still haven't acknowledged how dying to random bugs and having hours of progress wiped is somehow a reason for why it needs to stay.

You are correct. I did forget about random bugs. Can you please elaborate on these bugs? I don't know of any and have not encountered any that would kill my character so far.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

And Dark Souls isn't?

I have played Dark Souls and I personally did not encounter hard gear checks like they exist in games like PoE.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

We are talking about constantly dying in maps. Not bosses.

Nope. YOU are. Everybody else is talking about how annoying it is to lose EXP on death.

Yes. But how are you losing XP? Because you die in maps. If you do not die, there is no XP penalty.

I have thought about what I wrote and came to the conclusion that I did not explain well. I am sorry for that. I will try to do better. Maybe we can find common ground.

The XP penalty is mostly effecting players who keep dying over and over in maps and therefor cannot progress in levels. If they are not dying they are not losing XP.

For me the most important question therefor is what type of deaths are players experiencing in Maps and what would the solution to these deaths be?

1) Bugs - I am not aware of any, but some players say there are bugs causing unfair deaths. Not much the player can do. Solution: GGG fixes the bugs.

2) Unfair one shot mechanics. GGG has already started improving on them. By now, for my personal taste, there are almost no extreme one shot mechanics left that would cause you to die constantly. Maybe once now and then, but not enough to prevent leveling. Here the player could only try to play extra carefully and look specifically for the worst offenders. Maybe this way some deaths can be prevented. Solution: GGG improves on one shots.

3) The player gets overrun with mobs. This can easily happen in Breach or Ritual since a lot of monsters are spawning next to the player. This is a simple gear check. The character has to do enough damage to kill the monsters quickly or have enough defense to be able to tank a lot of monsters at the same time. Solution: Improve gear or lower difficulty.

4) Constant incoming damage. Mostly due to the large number of monsters in the map, shooting projectiles, leap attacks, ground effects and so on. This is a simple gear check. The character needs enough defenses to avoid, mitigate and recover more damage than the character is taking because it is simply impossible to avoid everything. Solution: Improve gear or lower difficulty.

5) Misunderstanding of mechanics. Like trying to block ground effects, or not knowing that bombs thrown by enemies can shotgun, using Chaos Inoculation with a mana flask that removes life on use. Things like these are basically just experience. There is not really much that can be done, other then, when a player dies they ask the question "How did I die?" and look for answers to build up that experience. Solution: Try to find out why your character died.

6) Getting hit by telegraphed hard hitting attacks/spells. Many regular enemies have attacks or spells that hit very hard and should be avoided by the player. Or for example these white exploding balls from Expedition or the purple plants. Solution: Avoid/Dodge these attacks/spells or improve gear to a point where the character does not get one shot by these or lower difficulty.

Every death that I have encountered or have heard of so far, could be put into one of those six categories. 1 and 2 are on GGG's side and they are working on it. 5 is simply experience that is built over time. And for me the most common I have seen 3, 4 and 6 all can be avoided by improving the gear or lowering the difficulty or 6 also by playing better.

This is why I keep insisting on the point that everything about dying/losing XP comes down to the difficulty that the player selects and the current state/power level of their character.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

Improve gear or lower difficulty.

Lowering difficulty means making the game easier for yourself.

You continue to see a player repeatedly dying as some great sin that the player must be dissuaded from. Why? How does it hurt the game for players to face challenges that require multiple deaths to overcome?

PoE 2 should be as much about player skill as it is about gear. The game should demand mastery of boss and mob mechanics that only happen after multiple deaths.

If you miss dodge rolls, if you don't move correctly, if you don't time your attacks properly, you should die. This assumes a "properly" geared and leveled character.

The problem with the XP (and other) death penalties is they prevent the devs from making a challenging game: With losing the map after your first death, you won't even have seen all of the boss (or rare mob) mechanics, and who knows when you'll face the boss again. The XP penalty ensures that you're constantly moving one step forward and three steps back.

And yes, I believe every endgame map should come with a realistic chance of death. If you're never dying to maps you're either an elite player, which the game should never be balanced around, or the content is simply too easy and a waste of time.

Leave that gameplay in Path of Exile, not PoE 2.

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

You continue to see a player repeatedly dying as some great sin that the player must be dissuaded from. Why? How does it hurt the game for players to face challenges that require multiple deaths to overcome?

I give up. There is no clearer way how I can explain it.

There is nothing to overcome. No challenge. The reasons for death I listed for which the solution is lowering the difficulty or improving gear are simply hard equipment checks. There is nothing to be done with skill. Nothing to overcome.

You either have the minimum needed equipment or your character dies. These are the only two options for these types of deaths. That's it. Please read death 3 and 4 again.

How is it possible that you do not understand this?

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

You continue to see a player repeatedly dying as some great sin that the player must be dissuaded from. Why? How does it hurt the game for players to face challenges that require multiple deaths to overcome?

I give up. There is no clearer way how I can explain it.

There is nothing to overcome. No challenge. The reasons for death I listed for which the solution is lowering the difficulty or improving gear are simply hard equipment checks. There is nothing to be done with skill. Nothing to overcome.

You either have the minimum needed equipment or your character dies. These are the only two options for these types of deaths. That's it. Please read death 3 and 4 again.

How is it possible that you do not understand this?

And you still refuse to answer the question:

How does it hurt the game for players to repeatedly throw themselves at difficult challenges, dying many times before clearing it? Why is this something that the player must be taught to avoid?

That has been your position for this whole thread. The player must be taught this lesson. That's the point of disagreement.

I believe the game should be encouraging the player to maximize the challenge, to juice the map up that extra little bit, and go in knowing they will probably fail, but feeling much more satisfied when they succeed.

As I've said in another thread - the death penalty makes the game easier.
I want it more challenging.

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

And you still refuse to answer the question:

How does it hurt the game for players to repeatedly throw themselves at difficult challenges, dying many times before clearing it? Why is this something that the player must be taught to avoid?

The situation your are asking about simply does not exist. How do you not get that? Just read death method 3 and 4.

These types of deaths are hard equipment checks.

There is no challenge to overcome. Your character either has the minimum needed equipment and survives or the character does not and dies.

You are talking about an imaginary situation that does not exist. Therefor it is impossible to answer it. It is non existent.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

There is no challenge to overcome. Your character either has the minimum needed equipment and survives or the character does not and dies.

Are you telling me that it's a binary "You will die to this content" or "You will not die to this content"? That sounds pretty boring if I knew the outcome before I even went into the content. Also, if the only thing that matters is gear, what's the point of reducing xp? Wouldn't the proper thing to do to teach a lesson be to do something to the gear? Or are you saying that levelling is a way to increase your power, nullifying your example?

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

And you still refuse to answer the question:

How does it hurt the game for players to repeatedly throw themselves at difficult challenges, dying many times before clearing it? Why is this something that the player must be taught to avoid?

The situation your are asking about simply does not exist. How do you not get that? Just read death method 3 and 4.

These types of deaths are hard equipment checks.

There is no challenge to overcome. Your character either has the minimum needed equipment and survives or the character does not and dies.

You are talking about an imaginary situation that does not exist. Therefor it is impossible to answer it. It is non existent.

Fine - I'll grant you those deaths are gear checks. I'm not talking about any specific deaths - I'm talking generally. You've said repeatedly in this thread that players need to be taught not to keep attempting content where they die. Why?

One more time - How does it hurt the game for players to continually test themselves against challenges they repeatedly fail? Why is that something the game must punish the player for?

The game should ENCOURAGE players to juice the maps up to the point they will likely die. Bosses should be expected to kill you three or four times before you learn the mechanics, and then you'll still need to execute everything properly to clear them.

Maps should have packs of mobs and rare spawn that have a good chance of killing the well-geared player.

The XP penalty prevents the dev team from designing and implement this content.
It is making the game EASIER, not harder.

Will you answer the basic question this time?

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

Fine - I'll grant you those deaths are gear checks. I'm not talking about any specific deaths - I'm talking generally. You've said repeatedly in this thread that players need to be taught not to keep attempting content where they die. Why?

I will just quote myself from the previous page. Because these are the possible reasons/types of deaths players can encounter during mapping.

5 and 6 are instances in which the player can indeed manage to get through the content, without improving gear or lowering difficulty, as stated on the previous page. But overcoming these should not take long. So if they die a couple of times this should be it and they should not die to these things again. So XP penalty is no real issue here.

3 and 4 are the ones where people feel like they run into a wall and where it is impossible to "overcome a challenge". And because it is impossible to overcome these deaths with skill or knowledge I believe that the extra signaling with XP loss is needed. The difference here to 5 and 6 is, that if someone keeps bashing their head against 5 and 6 they can eventually brute force their way through it. With 3 and 4 that is not case. No matter what they do and how many times they try, without improving equipment/gems or lowering difficulty they will only keep failing.

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

One more time - How does it hurt the game for players to continually test themselves against challenges they repeatedly fail? Why is that something the game must punish the player for?

If there is a chance for the player to succeed, then I think it would not hurt the game. The issue is, the game cannot differentiate between the types of death. And type 3 and 4 are much more common and are hard equipment checks. I believe it would much more hurt the game to remove the penalty for all types of deaths instead of keeping it for all. Since 3 and 4 are the most common ones.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

1) Bugs - I am not aware of any, but some players say there are bugs causing unfair deaths. Not much the player can do. Solution: GGG fixes the bugs.

2) Unfair one shot mechanics. GGG has already started improving on them. By now, for my personal taste, there are almost no extreme one shot mechanics left that would cause you to die constantly. Maybe once now and then, but not enough to prevent leveling. Here the player could only try to play extra carefully and look specifically for the worst offenders. Maybe this way some deaths can be prevented. Solution: GGG improves on one shots.

3) The player gets overrun with mobs. This can easily happen in Breach or Ritual since a lot of monsters are spawning next to the player. This is a simple gear check. The character has to do enough damage to kill the monsters quickly or have enough defense to be able to tank a lot of monsters at the same time. Solution: Improve gear or lower difficulty.

4) Constant incoming damage. Mostly due to the large number of monsters in the map, shooting projectiles, leap attacks, ground effects and so on. This is a simple gear check. The character needs enough defenses to avoid, mitigate and recover more damage than the character is taking because it is simply impossible to avoid everything. Solution: Improve gear or lower difficulty.

5) Misunderstanding of mechanics. Like trying to block ground effects, or not knowing that bombs thrown by enemies can shotgun, using Chaos Inoculation with a mana flask that removes life on use. Things like these are basically just experience. There is not really much that can be done, other then, when a player dies they ask the question "How did I die?" and look for answers to build up that experience. Solution: Try to find out why your character died.

6) Getting hit by telegraphed hard hitting attacks/spells. Many regular enemies have attacks or spells that hit very hard and should be avoided by the player. Or for example these white exploding balls from Expedition or the purple plants. Solution: Avoid/Dodge these attacks/spells or improve gear to a point where the character does not get one shot by these or lower difficulty.

Every death that I have encountered or have heard of so far, could be put into one of those six categories. 1 and 2 are on GGG's side and they are working on it. 5 is simply experience that is built over time. And for me the most common I have seen 3, 4 and 6 all can be avoided by improving the gear or lowering the difficulty or 6 also by playing better.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

You for real, dude? Literally page 2 of this thread and literally my first reply to you. And you might be wondering why I'm starting to get upset with you after +20 pages. I think it should come as no surprise, at all.

And this is PoE 1, by the way. PoE 2 by comparison is even more riddled with bugs and scuffed balance.

Yes, I can remember. Because it is PoE 1 I immediately discarded this.

This is the PoE 2 Discussion forum. Not the PoE 1 forum.

There is no Bonechill in PoE 2. According to PoE2DB there is no reflect non damaging ailments modifier for waystones in PoE 2 (and I have found none in the two tabs of waystones I have).

So how is this a PoE 2 bug?

How did you die to a bug in PoE 2?

Edit:
Even if there really is a bug in PoE 2 that causes characters to die, the correct way is to fix that bug, not to remove XP penalty.

Edit2:
Or is it just pure assumption on your part that there may be such bugs in PoE 2?