Death Penalty System - EXP Loss in particular

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TheRealKraggy#0533 wrote:

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B1tchFight#1281 wrote:

So what was your goal with PoE?

PoE1 was modelled on Diablo 2, D2 had XP loss so PoE1 has it.

PoE2 is modelled on PoE1, PoE1 has xp loss so PoE2 has it.

That's all you need to know to understand why it's a thing in PoE2.

Because some obsolete thing was in Diablo 2, is it mandatory to be in PoE?
Tetris inventory was also in Diablo II; it was irritating there and is irritating in here.
PoE2 was a great opportunity to get rid of it finally, but they decided to keep it probably because "D2 has it"
It was a stupid idea then, and it is stupid now.
And for all "you need to have XP loss, or you do not lose nothing when dying", you lose time, and any resources used.

XP loss idea is even more ridiculous now with the checkpoint system, where you lose your actual progress in the content.

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B1tchFight#1281 wrote:

How many people quit the game because of dying or had at least crap moments, stress and even anger issues VS people who would quit after removing the death penalty?

YESS THIS GAME MADE ME MORE ANGRY AND STRESSED OUT THAN ANY DARK SOULS. AND ITS REAAALY NOT FUN WITH ONE MAP TRY. MAYBE FOR YOUTUBERS OR STREAMERS SITTING 15H/24H WITH EQ WORH 1000DIVS.I JUST WANT TO PLAY, LOOT DROP, KILL BOSSES, MAYBE DIE AND TRY AGAIN. IF I WOULD LIKE TO PLAY HC I WOULD GO PLAY HC! THAT MECHANIC WITH LOSING EVERYTHING ON DEATH MADE ME QUIT. game for masochists sitting 16hours per day and for people who like when someone is spitting in their face. AND dont write go play diablo becouse its like mobile game. poe2 is really cool until maps. AND RNG WITH CITADELS AND MANY OTHERS THINGS I HATE IN "ENDGAME"


EDIT: DOING ACT3 MORE THAN 2 TIMES IS PAIN IN THE BACK. WHEN I WANT MAKE NEW CHARACTER AND IMAGINE GOING THROUGH ACT3 AGAIN I HEAVE POST-TRAUMA STRESS AND I GIVE UP INSTANTLY(i made it 6 times)

Why do you keep insisting on doing content with higher difficulty than your character is currently fit to do? And when you fail expect to be rewarded for it?

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

Nope. What's happening here is that you keep using that hypothetical scenario you made up in your head as some kind of be-all end-all argument. You have literally ignored every single post so far that was talking about dying to things that aren't your fault and still getting punished for it.

I have already acknowledged multiple times in this thread that there are some unfair one shot mechanics in the game currently. The correct way to handle this is to fix those. Not to remove the XP penalty. Dying to one of these unfair one shots from time to time will not prevent you from leveling. It will just take you some maps longer. There are not that many of those left in the game by now. Some have already been addressed.

Furthermore, many players think that a death is due to one of those unfair mechanics but in fact if you really look at the death it was either lacking defense or a misunderstanding of a mechanic. Like trying to block ground effects.

If you insist that you die all the time to only those unfair one shots, then I can guarantee that you also wrongfully attribute some deaths to those one shots when there is another reason for them. And here we are again at the point where many players have the misconception that they are the top god gamer who never makes mistakes and it always has to be the games fault.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

Every time this is brought up again, you flip a switch and go back to this "difficulty check" nonsense that you keep repeating. All the while not realising that having to "play it safe" is exactly why this mechanic is utter garbage. In a vacuum, this argument never makes any sense to begin with, because what you are telling the player is to never take any risks at all, which is a direct contradiction of the power fantasy that drives this genre to begin with. If the player should never take any risks, why should they bother with overcoming an obstacle?

This is not Dark Souls. Games like PoE revolve around improving your character. Strong Character > Skill. Except for maybe bosses. There are some bosses that can be defeated by pure skill. But certainly not maps, where you have hundreds of projectiles flying around.

And for the thousands time. You are free to take any risk you want. Just don't expect to be rewarded for failing.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

And before you flip that argument on its head again to use it against me: No, having an on-death EXP penalty does not achieve that effect by having your "EXP at risk"; the punishment is more severe than failure. Dying 50x to the same boss isn't the issue here. In your head, doing this is "too difficult content" - have you ever stopped to think that some things are just simply... meant to be difficult? If your goal is to trivialise any encounter before you engage with it, maybe you shouldn't be talking about appropriate punishment to begin with, don't you think.

Yes, pinnacle bosses are meant to be difficult. Not basic farming. Do you expect to break your leg 1 in 4 times going grocery shopping? No, because it is a basic thing you do to get the food you need. Same with farming in maps. You are not supposed to die that often in maps. How is that so hard to understand?

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

You cannot apply Souls difficulty logic here (what you seem to be doing), either, because you get to try a boss for as long as you like, until you beat it. In PoE, you have to grind for hours to find a fragment, grind out an entire set, and then you get 1 attempt and you lose everything when you die, including the one steady bit of progress you have made thus far: EXP.

We are talking about constantly dying in maps. Not bosses.

Also I don't know what you mean with "apply Souls difficulty logic". The logic I apply is that games like PoE evolve around improving your character. The stronger you make your character the harder content you can farm and the more efficient you can farm. Having a strong character is almost always more important than being a skilled player for mapping. Which makes sense because when there are hundreds of enemies on your screen, shooting projectiles, leaping at you ... there simply is absolutely no way to dodge every single one of those attacks. So you have to build a character that can tank some of those and then be able to replenish lost Life/ES/Mana in order to sustain the incoming damage.

I would argue that it is the opposite in a game like Dark Souls. So either I misunderstand what you mean with Souls difficulty logic or you misunderstood me.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

Why do you keep insisting on doing content with higher difficulty than your character is currently fit to do? And when you fail expect to be rewarded for it?

BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE THE FUN IS!!!
Beating content my character is geared and leveled to consistently defeat is boring.

I don't expect or want to be rewarded for FAILING the content.
I DO want to be rewarded for CLEARING the content.

You keep on comparing this game to Path of Exile:
This is a different game with different design goals.

Player skill should be at least as much of a factor in clearing content as character gear and builds are. The player skill is acquired by failing. The more you fail, the better you become. "If at first you don't succeed, Die, Die, Again!"


It sounds like you really like Path of Exile. Great - that game still exists for you. Run all the maps you want without dying and slowly building your character.

This game is for those who want to face a challenge.

The entire dev presentation for the endgame is about managing risk vs reward: How hard will you make the maps, how far will you keep going in the challenges? Death penalties negate all of that once the reward isn't worth the risk.

But thank for you continuing to engage with this topic and keeping it squarely in view.

Experience Loss is a pivotal game mechanic whether it stays 10%, lowers to 5% or is raised to 15%.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

Why are you so stuck on the idea that you have to run maps on a difficulty where you keep dying? There is such a wide range of difficulty to choose from. Why not follow the natural character progression? If the XP loss is discouraging playing above your characters capabilities, then good! It is working as expected. Because it is not part of the natural progression to keep dying over and over again. Dying should be discouraged. So it is working as intended.

The only thing that xp loss on death is discouraging is dying itself, and the message it sends is don't do content you will die in at all ever until you are level 100. Fear and avoidance of playing the game in a fun way does not make a good game, and it will 100% drive away and potential success for this game. The "natural progression" for people is not natural at all for casual play, its getting to maps, and then pushing the same button until you hit level 100, and then continuing past the first level of maps.

[Removed by Support] they seriously need to get rid of XP loss on death. It's an incredibly stupid and archaic mechanic that shouldn't be in the game. It's just awful game design.

I'm fine with the XP loss if MF wasn't the only way to play and the god F'in awful map sustain. D4 got so much hate for nightmare dungeon sigil sustain and rightfully so.

If they want to keep cheesy one shot death mechanics from ultra zoomed in view and no way to turn down the effects to see what killed you AND penalize me with XP loss, lose my map and all modifiers. At least drop some high tier maps. Why am I getting tier 5 maps in a tier 15?

I'm so bored with this lame end game, might have to check back in a year see if they change anything.

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Manocean#0852 wrote:

Experience Loss is a pivotal game mechanic whether it stays 10%, lowers to 5% or is raised to 15%.

There's also the option of:

Softcore ( no punishment at all, let people just chill )
Standard ( the current state for whoever likes a bit of a challenge )
Hardcore ( your typical hardcore )

As a proposal.

And everyone is happy and can play their own "version" of the game as they see fit to their way of life.

Why simply limit it to "lose xp" & "hardcore" when you can also cater to the absolute casuals? It's a win in my opinion from all perspectives. More people happy, bigger player base, more diverse opinions and feedback overall throughout the rest of the games expansion & eventually more cash in the pocket I suppose.

Why does it have to be "either this, or that", I don't understand?

Pretty much everyone is super fixated on "fighting" unfortunately defending their case and trying to prove points for their "team", when in fact both sides are correct in their own way.

And fyi before everyone starts to jump me, I'd be playing Standard ( so the current system is pretty much ok with me ) because I like a challenge but I'm not really built for hardcore, I just understand why all the frustration about the xp loss as well... :) .

So the solution is always somewhere in the middle, but that's up to GGG to decide at the end of the day.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

The XP penalty serves a very important purpose and must not be removed.

It disincentivizes players to just mindlessly bash their heads against the wall and die over and over in content their character is not yet fit to play.

When you reach a point in an ARPG where you keep dying, the game is trying to tell you that your character is too weak for that kind of content. It is an obstacle that is presented to you to overcome. It is part of the progression of an ARPG.

In PoE especially the player can choose the difficulty of the content 100%. You choose the waystone/map tier, you choose the affixes of the waystone/map, you choose the additional content you do. Each of these things make the map harder or easier depending on your decision.

In my case for example. My build was able to clear the map tiers relatively safe up to tier 15. But when I opened a breach in tier 15 I was at risk of becoming overrun. Since my first priority was the Atlas passive points I simply avoided additional map content until I finished my 6 tier 15 maps. This way I was able to keep the difficulty in an area where I felt comfortable. My decision. Now that I have all Atlas passive points but my character is still not as strong I simply run tier 13 maps but can do all additional content in them without too much risk.

For some strange reason people nowadays are under the misconception that it is always the games fault. When in fact they simply do not want to look how to overcome an obstacle that is part of the natural progression. Most players have that typical LoL or WoW mentality of "I am the god gamer. It is my teammates fault that I do not reach diamond/Gladiator. I could reach that rank easily if I would not be kept down by others."

In PoE 1 this was mostly avoided because the requirements for build guides became so high, that basically every starter build had to be able to clear the campaign naked, finish the Atlas in blue items, be an excellent bosser and be able to do every league mechanic. In PoE 2 the knowledge simply is not yet there to do this. So we are back at the "work on your character" state.

If you die the simple fact is that it was your bad decision making. Except of some unfair one shots, which GGG already started to address and will continue to improve.

+1 but people think blasting t15-16 juiced with some of the deadliest mods is suppose to be normal and that they shouldn't be dying from this.. lmao how wrong could they be?

Every person who complains about dying isn't dying 1 out of ever 15 or 10 or 5 for that matter they're probably dying every other map.

If you die 3 times out of 5 times in any tier you should either look at the mods you're running or go down a tier.
Generally it isn't even the tier that is the issue it is the modifiers you're running that make the map deadly.

Death Penalty is there so you learn. As a matter of fact start by being humble because on Path of Exile (especially 2) you cannot afford the luxury of being complacent right at endgame.