Limiting support gems to only one skill nearly forces one button gameplay

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Moribundus#6790 wrote:

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Redthorne82#3177 wrote:

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Moribundus#6790 wrote:

I get your point, but I cannot agree fully, as it is maybe viable by a Mercenary, but renders ... heavily cripples the ie. Summoner,...

Why should be players not being able to use ie. Persistence on a minion skill gem and on a Spell, or any other non-minion skill gems.

and it goes on and on.
this is not build/skill gem diversity, it's creates the exact oppossite.

Restricts what we can use, and just as the OP said, we are FORCED to put some "other" support gem into a socket, not because it is so good, but because it is all we are left with.

I get the concept idea of GGG, but it is extremely backfiring and a sharp double-edged blade.

It does some good, but ALOT BAD.
That's ain't a win-win, nor balanced approach/idea.

I'd like to point out this is what you said.

1. Not being able to use multiple of the same gems is NOT diversity.
2. We are FORCED to put some "other" support gem into a socket...

Math ain't mathing. It sounds like "other" would include dozens of possibilities while the other choice is everyone uses the exact same thing...

Explain again how this ISN'T promoting diverse builds? It may not be PERFECT or OPTIMAL, but it's more diverse (and plenty good enough to progress in the game).

Don't catch me on words out of context.

If you need to explain those 2 separate things you struggling with, ain't my problem m8.

Feel free to take it as an offense, althought it's not meant so, but I am not you. w/e

I would say alot of ppl get the point how it is anti-diversity and how it is forced.

But ok, let's formulate it otherwise.
Not forced. Be it... RESTRICTED and that to such a point where you are left with something you don't want to use, but you "HAVE TO".

And if you come now with "Have to?" No you don't have to... yes... feel free to re-read the 1st few sentences on this reply.

If I want to use "increased duration" on a minion and as well on a TOTALY DIFFERENT CLASS of skill gem, ie. Molten Shell, or w/e...
But I cannot = forced.


Maybe I could get with it that I can have only 1 support gem type per minion, or per spell, or attack, ... but per any?! that's uther bs.

It feels TOTALY as D3 / D4 skill "tree". cut down, restricted, zero creativity, narrowed down.

Yes, you can use XYZ support gems, that's fine. The issue is not with that, the issue is, we cannot use the one we want.

I tell it otherwise.

DIVERSITY

In PoE 1, you have the exact same opportunities of true diversity, you can put ANY support gem to ANY skill, as often you want.
You don't have to put ie. "Increased duration" into Minion, another Minion, and to a different spell. But YOU CAN.
However in PoE 2
You CANNOT do the same. It's not diversity, it's restricted forced way of gem setup.
Just like in D3/D4. And that's SAD.

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j33bus#3399 wrote:

I'm not sure it forces one button gameplay? It might, but it might not, it definitely forces a bit more creativity and decision making on loadouts.

Though I do think skill rotations suck mostly, and needing to rotate through skills is an MMO thing that's infecting ARPGs and making the gameplay bad.

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Sickness#1007 wrote:

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j33bus#3399 wrote:

I'm not sure it forces one button gameplay? It might, but it might not, it definitely forces a bit more creativity and decision making on loadouts.

Though I do think skill rotations suck mostly, and needing to rotate through skills is an MMO thing that's infecting ARPGs and making the gameplay bad.

The only non 1-button skills will be the forced rotation skills.

When you have 5 supports per skill you will want to put the best ones to your most used skill and that will leave the rests of your skills with only worse supports and those skill will not be worth the time to use except for the built in combos.

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Pjwned#4230 wrote:

So...what I'm getting out of that is you want to have broad categories for skills, and that you want support gems to be limited for the same category of skills but not a different category of skills, is that about right?

That could be good maybe, if skills were categorized in a good way. Just throwing some category ideas out there, there could be offensive attacks, offensive spells, defense skills, movement skills...something like that I suppose.

I don't really expect it'll happen but I wouldn't have a problem if GGG wanted to try doing that.

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Moribundus#6790 wrote:

Don't catch me on words out of context.

If you need to explain those 2 separate things you struggling with, ain't my problem m8.

Feel free to take it as an offense, althought it's not meant so, but I am not you. w/e

I would say alot of ppl get the point how it is anti-diversity and how it is forced.

But ok, let's formulate it otherwise.
Not forced. Be it... RESTRICTED and that to such a point where you are left with something you don't want to use, but you "HAVE TO".

And if you come now with "Have to?" No you don't have to... yes... feel free to re-read the 1st few sentences on this reply.

If I want to use "increased duration" on a minion and as well on a TOTALY DIFFERENT CLASS of skill gem, ie. Molten Shell, or w/e...
But I cannot = forced.


Maybe I could get with it that I can have only 1 support gem type per minion, or per spell, or attack, ... but per any?! that's uther bs.

It feels TOTALY as D3 / D4 skill "tree". cut down, restricted, zero creativity, narrowed down.

Yes, you can use XYZ support gems, that's fine. The issue is not with that, the issue is, we cannot use the one we want.

I tell it otherwise.

DIVERSITY

In PoE 1, you have the exact same opportunities of true diversity, you can put ANY support gem to ANY skill, as often you want.
You don't have to put ie. "Increased duration" into Minion, another Minion, and to a different spell. But YOU CAN.
However in PoE 2
You CANNOT do the same. It's not diversity, it's restricted forced way of gem setup.
Just like in D3/D4. And that's SAD.

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Nagshell#5838 wrote:

I don't agree with your conclusion.

Yes it is a restriction that is put on our build, but it is exactly restrictions that birth creativity and diversity in builds. Just like you are limited to only 5 supports per skill, or how you are only able to wear 2 rings.

Yes, it is a limitation, but it is not instantly a detriment to diversity.



Another not obvious benefit of the current system, is that supports can be way more powerful and creative, exactly because that limitation is there. Like the mentioned 25% more atk speed, is objectively one of the best supports, very universal and with no downside. But you have to look at others, instead of slapping it on all of your skills.
This also opens a lot of doors design wise, and I think it's a great move.


That said, not everything is perfect, because certain sets of skills do kinda struggle atm, for example chaos spells have very limited set of valuable supports, and needs improvements. But we are missing half the weapon classes, and hopefully half the supports that will fill those gaps.

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Moribundus#6790 wrote:

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Nagshell#5838 wrote:

I don't agree with your conclusion.

Yes it is a restriction that is put on our build, but it is exactly restrictions that birth creativity and diversity in builds. Just like you are limited to only 5 supports per skill, or how you are only able to wear 2 rings.

Yes, it is a limitation, but it is not instantly a detriment to diversity.



Another not obvious benefit of the current system, is that supports can be way more powerful and creative, exactly because that limitation is there. Like the mentioned 25% more atk speed, is objectively one of the best supports, very universal and with no downside. But you have to look at others, instead of slapping it on all of your skills.
This also opens a lot of doors design wise, and I think it's a great move.


That said, not everything is perfect, because certain sets of skills do kinda struggle atm, for example chaos spells have very limited set of valuable supports, and needs improvements. But we are missing half the weapon classes, and hopefully half the supports that will fill those gaps.

I keep reading most of the time the same argument about restricted support gems usage ability and that is:
because they increase dps so they are prefered by "all".

There is just one issue with this argument.
There are XY other support gems, that are not about dmg boost, which are player's prefered choice of usage even if the dmg is worse. But now it is not possible to anylonger use them.
It has nothing to do with damage, or some meta builds or majority of ppl that just brainlessly copy some build guide.

There are tons of skill suffering from insufficient support gems available, due to the limited supp.gem per character. And many of those skill gems have nothing to do with DMG or whatever uberpower.

maybe that restricted usage does not affects some skills or few builds, but many other builds indeed do suffer, and a lot.

Basicaly any build that uses more than 1-2 skills.

I repeat myself, but it's forced, and this restricted setup does not solves anything.

Ppl will still use and copy the exact same build guide that will be made for PoE2. The only difference will be, they will copy a build with specific supports on specific skills.
Absolutely NOTHING will change. There will always be a top dmg setup, and majority of ppl will copy that. In PoE 1 ppl could have used same variables on w/e build, but many did not, why? cuz none cares, if I have ie. a Tornado shot build I will always pick the same gem setup that yields me fastest gameplay, very few ppl there will choose instead to swap extra projectiles support for ie. dunno chain projectiles or slower projectiles, or whatever.

There is no point in it.