[POE2] Ascendancies - Don't discourage players from experimentation

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

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exsea#1724 wrote:

temp leagues were originally designed as a way for GGG to test new mechanics to add into the core/standard.

but look at where we are now? temp leagues are now the main league most players choose to engage with POE.

A tired....and wildly incorrect statement. They were never designed to be "tests", except within the beta. This is a simple untruth spouted by standard-lovers to try and defend standard. However, the reality is that standard is and always was the dumping ground for the "main" game which was the leagues.

No, Standard was not marketed as a dumping ground by GGG rather the core of the game.

That's why i invested my time there so readily since 2013.

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SilentSymphony#3358 wrote:

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

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exsea#1724 wrote:

temp leagues were originally designed as a way for GGG to test new mechanics to add into the core/standard.

but look at where we are now? temp leagues are now the main league most players choose to engage with POE.

A tired....and wildly incorrect statement. They were never designed to be "tests", except within the beta. This is a simple untruth spouted by standard-lovers to try and defend standard. However, the reality is that standard is and always was the dumping ground for the "main" game which was the leagues.

No, Standard was not marketed as a dumping ground by GGG rather the core of the game.

That's why i invested my time there so readily since 2013.

I just spend a good deal of time going through 10+ year old content on youtube and this forum, and not ONCE did I find anything that indicates Standard was considered the core game. Would you care to share that?

Because logic would dictate that if new content is being added to league first, Standard later, then people WILL gravitate towards leagues (just as they have since the D2 era) and Standard WILL becoming a dumping ground, as everything ends up there eventually (just like landfills).

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FalkenRaiding#1068 wrote:

I just spend a good deal of time going through 10+ year old content on youtube and this forum, and not ONCE did I find anything that indicates Standard was considered the core game. Would you care to share that?

Because logic would dictate that if new content is being added to league first, Standard later, then people WILL gravitate towards leagues (just as they have since the D2 era) and Standard WILL becoming a dumping ground, as everything ends up there eventually (just like landfills).

What then is the core of PoE? When you start your new league every time the version of the game you are on is the same as standard + the new league content.

Standard/Hardcore are the Core of the game quite literally.

it really frustrates me that some people have this notion that POE has always been temp league focus from the start.

the thing that really frustrates me is all this info is buried in 10 years of history that can only be uncovered by digging thru archived versions of poe website.

and tbh i have better things to do.

as much as one can say "standard never was the main part of poe" the opposite can also be stated. pretty sure non of us want to dig up the archives to prove our points.

all i can say is back when poe started, if poe was marketed as temp league focused, i would NEVER have played poe.

all my friends who ended up playing poe came from d2. all of them were standard andies. the friends that played with me during POE open beta all were standard andies.

heck whenever a temp league was announced we literally did not care at all.

the first time i actually played temp league was beyond league. i had ONE purpose. farm up chaos in hardcore, then buy and edge of madness then kill myself to get the sword back into standard.

ALL of my friends avoided temp leagues. even when d3 had many new seasons only 1-2 of my many friends actually went in to play in a season while the rest of us played in eternal realm.

ggg tried HARD to make standard players get into temp leagues.

it started with some league challenge rewards that were just recolours of seraphim armorset. they were ugly AF to me.

i remember the first time i started jumping into temp league was at the end of darkshrine, i jumped in not because i liked darkshrine, but the upcoming talisman league had truly unique amulets that i wanted to bring back to standard and i wanted to see how i fared.

after that i casually joined temp leagues only if theres things i want to bring back to standard or the challenge reward looked awesome. i skipped every single league that did not fulfill my needs.

my friends all were the same. we were the type of gamers that farmed temp leagues all for the sake of standard.

i m pretty sure my experience does not reflect those who are temp league enjoyers. but for you to say that standard was never a focus of ggg, you're downplaying the experience that many players had. did we misremember something so crucially important? if its me alone, ok fine. but me and all my other friends? we were standard andies and we all had similar mindset.

it blows my mind that people like you would insist that standard was never a major component of poe.

hello? poe was modelled after d2. how many interviews have we had where the devs mentioned that. our archaic trade system was stubbornly copied from d2.

d2 has no other "leagues" only standard league. they did add ladders and seasons way later, but it was practically resets that barely gave new content.

diablo 1 was "standard only". titan quest was standard only. dungeon siege, sacred and other similar diablo clones were all standard only.

if you think ggg modelled poe without any consideration for standard, its pretty weird as standard was the "standard" for all arpgs back then.

I 100% agree, not being able to change ascendancies points is WEAK!

They should also let it be possible to change ascendancy!

Respect the player and their time!

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exsea#1724 wrote:

this is a very divisive subject.

on one hand i like the idea of being able to respec

but on another i see the value of some character permanency.

permanency came from an ancient philosophy of living with your choices.

back in d2, everything was deliberate. before synergies were a thing, if you put all your points into early skills, you would have an easy time leveling but harder time at later levels as the better skills could be lower leveled or you would have less points to spend on meaningful end game skills.

if you wanted to min max, you lived and died with your skill/attribute allocation. if you were unhappy you can ONLY reroll.

but the reward was your build was YOURS. you leveled it. you got it up to where it is now.

respeccing takes away all sense of permanency as well as identity. but i do appreciate the fact that we can respec now. if we couldnt respec, i d be so damn pissed that some of my passives are allocated wrongly or in less efficient clusters.

respeccing is a wonderfully modern invention.

as for ascendencies. imho, we SHOULD allow changing our ascendencies. BUT with a caveat that its expensive.

POE1 allows for an ascendency change and i find it fair, we unallocate all ascendency points and rerun a trial. its enough effort to not trivialize our ascendency choice as players need to put actual work to change their ascendency.

I mean - the thing about d2 is that the build system was incredibly simple in comparison to todays stuff. And it took maybe 2 hours to roll a new character.

things were just different back then.

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SilentSymphony#3358 wrote:

No, Standard was not marketed as a dumping ground by GGG rather the core of the game.

That's why i invested my time there so readily since 2013.

This was never true, both in practice by players and by development from the developers. Never.

It was "marketed", by players and developers alike, as a dumping ground with very little attention given to it. They don't need to outright "say" this for it to be true. Why would they ever outright say "We don't care about standard"?

But when they 1) don't fix item problems, 2) don't do balance passes, 3) don't fix pervasive bugs that have been reported for years, 4) make sweeping changes to the overall game with no regard to the years of saved items in standard, etc., they are telling you in no uncertain terms that it is not the core of the game.

And when the incredibly vast majority of players do NOT play standard, which has been attested to as far back as 2013 by GGG themselves, it is most certainly not any version of "core".

It is a fantasy to think that "standard" is anything more than what it has been treated as post-beta. Regardless of what it might happen to be named. The first few beta leagues and maybe even into the first one or two post-release leagues, it was true that standard had its place in the limelight. But almost immediately upon the popularity of challenge leagues being recognized, that was shelved.

Whether you chose to devote your time in standard or you or your friends boycott / don't play temporary leagues is completely irrelevant. History is clear. GGG's actions / inactions are clear. The player numbers (beyond tiny personal bubbles) are clear.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

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SilentSymphony#3358 wrote:

No, Standard was not marketed as a dumping ground by GGG rather the core of the game.

That's why i invested my time there so readily since 2013.

This was never true, both in practice by players and by development from the developers. Never.

It was "marketed", by players and developers alike, as a dumping ground with very little attention given to it. They don't need to outright "say" this for it to be true. Why would they ever outright say "We don't care about standard"?

But when they 1) don't fix item problems, 2) don't do balance passes, 3) don't fix pervasive bugs that have been reported for years, 4) make sweeping changes to the overall game with no regard to the years of saved items in standard, etc., they are telling you in no uncertain terms that it is not the core of the game.

And when the incredibly vast majority of players do NOT play standard, which has been attested to as far back as 2013 by GGG themselves, it is most certainly not any version of "core".

It is a fantasy to think that "standard" is anything more than what it has been treated as post-beta. Regardless of what it might happen to be named. The first few beta leagues and maybe even into the first one or two post-release leagues, it was true that standard had its place in the limelight. But almost immediately upon the popularity of challenge leagues being recognized, that was shelved.

Whether you chose to devote your time in standard or you or your friends boycott / don't play temporary leagues is completely irrelevant. History is clear. GGG's actions / inactions are clear. The player numbers (beyond tiny personal bubbles) are clear.

I'm sorry but no, You're wrong.

And popular opinion does not change history.

I'm a bit late to the discussion, but I have to say I think locking ascendancies is a very player-unfriendly decision from GGG. It discourages experimentation and will likely push players to rely heavily on guides and streamers' opinions to make the "optimal" choice. This approach punishes players for picking the "wrong" ascendancy unless every class is perfectly balanced and equally enjoyable which, let’s be honest, is highly unlikely.

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SilentSymphony#3358 wrote:

I'm sorry but no, You're wrong.

And popular opinion does not change history.

if popular opinion dictated history, a large number of americans love declaring that america is a christian nation.

if we actually study history the founding fathers of america intentionally hard coded separation of state and church in the constitution.

many people do not know nor care enough about history and make assumptions.

it is true that GGG innovated and tried hard to make players jump into temp leagues. it was even part of their strategy to keep the game fresh and prolong the longevity of the game.

but to dismiss standard as a non crucial league is honestly one of the worst takes i've ever seen repeated on this forum and on reddit.

the game would have failed without the standard players supporting them.