Proposed change for Forbidden Flesh/Flame

i think its actually a really good idea.



it wouldnt change the amount of these jewels in trade and it would still be really hard to get the pair you want in a self found situation, but it would mean if you got 2 you at least would have a usable matching pair.


i dunno, i think its a solid idea.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

Devs have spoken on the subject numerous times. The game is balanced around trade

im not sure ive seen them say that, the trade manifesto says almost the opposite. it argues if you make trade easy you have to balance drops around it, and thats why they dont want to trade to be easy. so right there they are saying they are not balancing the game around trade.

if you trade in this game significantly the game is a total joke, its so easy to just orbital nuke 99% of content. i cant really see what regular traders are able to do as the intended state of balance.

theres a really tiny fraction of items like these jewels where i think you can make the case that theyre completely balanced around trade.

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Esubane wrote:

just play SC trade. It's where overwhelming majority of players are located.

its where most people play, but the trade manifesto says the majority of players dont trade in any significant way so it would seem most of the people playing there are not trading. most people just play with the stuff they find.


now when it comes to these jewels, if you are at a place where you are farming something this elite then yeah, its a guess but my guess would be most people able to farm for these items are both in trade league and probably trading a significant amount.

but i do think its important to acknowledge most people dont trade and the game has to function without trading. that doesnt mean 100% of stuff has to be for non traders tho of course, i think its ok if a small amount of really elite content is just not for them. but if theres a way you can change it that doesnt really effect their availability in trade i feel like why not?

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

im not sure ive seen them say that, the trade manifesto says almost the opposite. it argues if you make trade easy you have to balance drops around it, and thats why they dont want to trade to be easy. so right there they are saying they are not balancing the game around trade.

They literally say it all the time.....every time they make a major change that comes up in interviews and posts, they talk about how they need to consider that in trade, the item becomes readily available almost immediately to everyone. As such, their STARTING point for every new item / design is from a trade-centered mindset. And for the record, the trade manifesto is from 2017...and even within it, still says they balance the game around trade lol. It is quite literally the point of the "Trade Manifesto" in the first place.

And for the record, they don't even need to outright say it at this point....the fact that they have basically never made a SSF-unique change shows how they focus their attention.

Even the newest modes: ruthless and ruthless SSF are balanced around ruthless trade.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

im not sure ive seen them say that, the trade manifesto says almost the opposite. it argues if you make trade easy you have to balance drops around it, and thats why they dont want to trade to be easy. so right there they are saying they are not balancing the game around trade.

They literally say it all the time.....every time they make a major change that comes up in interviews and posts, they talk about how they need to consider that in trade, the item becomes readily available almost immediately to everyone. As such, their STARTING point for every new item / design is from a trade-centered mindset. And for the record, the trade manifesto is from 2017...and even within it, still says they balance the game around trade lol. It is quite literally the point of the "Trade Manifesto" in the first place.

And for the record, they don't even need to outright say it at this point....the fact that they have basically never made a SSF-unique change shows how they focus their attention.

what do you mean by ssf unique change?

the manifesto is from 2017.

i cant recall ever hearing them say they balance 'the game' around trade, but i have specifically referenced you a post where they say they are not doing that. of course they consider trade, they obviously consider non trade too. i dont agree with the conclusion that its obvious, i think if you just watch a video of a heavy trader playing the game its pretty obvious that is not an intended state of game balance?

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jsuslak313 wrote:

^It is you who missed the point pretty drastically.

Within each mode, there's gradations of difficulty exactly as you describe. You just completely choose to ignore them when making your assessment.

If SSF is indeed "super sweaty" mode, then I would argue Trade is Easy through "sweaty" mode. If you can tackle sweaty mode trade, SSF is going to be far less of a difficulty leap. But if you go from knowing nothing in trade mode straight into SSF mode.....then of course its going to feel like you're going from 1 to 1000.

"Difficulty" in PoE is also quite subjective. Difficulty for one player could mean the classic "hardest content cleared". But for many others, difficulty could simply refer to game knowledge and build creation. Ex: If you follow a guide for a SSF build, SSF mode itself is going to be just as easy as Trade mode. But if you try to create your own SSF build, while mostly reliant on trade previously, you are gonna have a HARD time.

I mean you can "I know you are but what am I" all you want.

In the end having a reasonable spectrum of difficulty settings is how most games appeal to a reasonable segment of players.

The eternal defenders of the faith who protect and defend every status quo aspect of the game can defend bad business if they want. Its only going to harm the game in the long run, continue to lose market share to games that aren't so polaric.

Games like Last Epoch, and a raft of new ARPG's will be happy to fill the foolish voids GGG has left because they listen to "this game can't be made any better than it is easy mode and 6 hard modes is perfection!" types.

^....really...? You are reading an incredibly long document about HOW the game is entirely balanced around trade, and saying that its NOT about that? Even in the "Role of SSF Mode" section they say its designed to be harder, because it is "not intended as a precursor...to making trade easier". SSF exists solely because it allows for leaderboards that accurately portray SSF players.

The manifesto exists BECAUSE the game is balanced around trade. It describes how trade plays an intricate role in EVERY decision they have to make with the game. The power of items, the power of drops, the time of play, the modes of play, the trade software, the philosophy of how trade interacts with game systems, etc. It is EVERYTHING.

Regarding SSF-unique changes, I mean changes made ONLY to SSF modes. Showing some kind of developer-made content unique to SSF. This has never happened. SSF sees the same updates as everyone else, and those updates follow this manifesto and the availability of items as they exist in TRADE.

I can't even believe there is an argument to be had here. In almost every single interview, devs say the same thing when questioned about drop rates, SSF, etc. They always consider the trade environment, and have to consider item "access" based on that first and foremost.

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alhazred70 wrote:

I mean you can "I know you are but what am I" all you want.

In the end having a reasonable spectrum of difficulty settings is how most games appeal to a reasonable segment of players.

The eternal defenders of the faith who protect and defend every status quo aspect of the game can defend bad business if they want. Its only going to harm the game in the long run, continue to lose market share to games that aren't so polaric.

Games like Last Epoch, and a raft of new ARPG's will be happy to fill the foolish voids GGG has left because they listen to "this game can't be made any better than it is easy mode and 6 hard modes is perfection!" types.

Wrong....I have argued in many threads that I would LOVE an easy SSF mode. Or rather, a mode of gameplay specifically designed around a SSF person not spending an entire lifetime to finish a single character. That is completely irrelevant to this discussion. It would be a totally different game

You are complaining that people come in and comment on the CURRENT SSF mode being balanced around trade, which is just plain TRUE. Arguing for a completely different game mode, I can get behind. But arguing with your head buried in the sand about choices made around an existing game mode, and that's where my agreement ends.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

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alhazred70 wrote:

I mean you can "I know you are but what am I" all you want.

In the end having a reasonable spectrum of difficulty settings is how most games appeal to a reasonable segment of players.

The eternal defenders of the faith who protect and defend every status quo aspect of the game can defend bad business if they want. Its only going to harm the game in the long run, continue to lose market share to games that aren't so polaric.

Games like Last Epoch, and a raft of new ARPG's will be happy to fill the foolish voids GGG has left because they listen to "this game can't be made any better than it is easy mode and 6 hard modes is perfection!" types.

Wrong....I have argued in many threads that I would LOVE an easy SSF mode. Or rather, a mode of gameplay specifically designed around a SSF person not spending an entire lifetime to finish a single character. That is completely irrelevant to this discussion. It would be a totally different game

You are complaining that people come in and comment on the CURRENT SSF mode being balanced around trade, which is just plain TRUE. Arguing for a completely different game mode, I can get behind. But arguing with your head buried in the sand about choices made around an existing game mode, and that's where my agreement ends.

I discussed the underlying issue (the easy mode and 6 hard modes) and how everyone misses the point (that currently SSF is the only non trade mode for people who want to just play the game without trade) and you tell me that I am the one who missed the point a second time, and then you go on to acknowledge the validity of the fundamental point. I literally can't...

Maybe people should stop getting wrapped up in protecting Hardmode #1 and gatekeeping the people who are playing the only mode GGG has provided to them.

BTW Quin69 who is sweaty as all getout if you ask me also thinks SSF should be balanced without trade mode drop rates.

The game is not ideally configured with 1 creative mode and 6 hard modes is the point.

To everyone saying "SSF was your own choice" you are correct, but would it hurt trade league in any way to implement this change? i dont think it would, but it would help alot in SSF/Private Leagues/HC Trade.