Multiple atlas trees result in less uniqueness and specialization

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Senju_Hyoketsu wrote:

By making this change, one's atlas spec (and now specs) are simply less valuable. Their value and place within a league economy, or even worse, within ones psyche (the fantasy you have in your mind of a certain farming strategy you aspire to attain, plan, goal or character trajectory) are immensely devalued.
Hence character immersion is devalued, the atlas itself and its nodes are devalued, the different league mechanics are devalued.
Everything is more attainable, every farming strategy is more attainable, players are able to try their hand at everything.

I just can't agree at all with anything written here. First of all, "respec cost" in this game is a total joke when you get to the point in the game where you NEED to respec. You "unlock" the extra trees based on how far you progress through your atlas, presumably they won't unlock until you are already well into the atlas and essentially have access to "unlimited" respec orbs.

The friction you describe does not fulfill the purpose that you think it does. It is a completely needless waste of time and nothing more.

My atlas specs, nor my value or place in the economy is devalued at all by having access to additional specialized trees. In fact, it is the opposite. My value is INCREASED because I can experiment with many different types of content without unnecessary friction. Similarly, my psyche is all the better for being able to experience far more of the game. If you are telling me that respec orbs actually DETER you from changing your atlas tree...then I kinda feel sorry for you. They cost nothing, drop like candy via cards and content. You limit yourself with this false sense of "permanence" that never existed with the Atlas Passive Tree in the first place.

You seem to be under the impression that atlas tree = ability level which isn't true. Just because you CAN spec into all the delirium nodes doesn't immediately make you suddenly "good" at gaining value from running delirium. You still need to put in the work and have the correct build.

Players SHOULD be able to try their hand at everything. This game isn't a competition....my experience shouldn't be limited because YOU believe you are in competition with me for (un)limited legion farming lol.



The ONLY thing this change does is cut down on the time required to do something players at that stage of the game ALREADY DO on a pretty regular basis. I respec my atlas tree 5-10x per league, sometimes even more. Simply because I get bored doing the same thing over and over again. My choices there already have zero weight. Permanence has NEVER been a feature of the Atlas Passive Tree, and you limit yourself by thinking it does.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

Players SHOULD be able to try their hand at everything.

[Removed by Support]

Dude, this game is the spiritual successor of Diablo 2, and old school game design philosophies... And above all else, it's a ROLE PLAYING GAME (RPG).
Since when should one be able to try their hand at everything in RPG's ?!?!?!?!?! I'm dreaming.

NO, players SHOULD NOT be able to try their hand at everything. Reading this makes me want to quit human interactions.

Whatever think what you wish, too many hopeless people everywhere.
But you win, GG, you're right :)

^clearly you felt personally attacked lol and are incredibly shortsighted here.

I said try their hand at everything, and in the same post said that doesn't necessarily mean SUCCEED at everything. Players can attempt uber bosses all they want, doesn't mean they will ever or SHOULD ever beat them.

You conflate two totally different things, and continue to confuse the two to argue your point. And if you just completely discount everything I say because you misunderstand what I say and can't be bothered to THINK about it.....that makes this whole thread even LESS meaningful.

For the record again: ALL players already DO have access to everything the game has to offer, regardless of ability level. So if that comment "renders everything I say moot", you honestly have no idea what you are talking about.

Experience, skill, and build development are the only limiting factors when it actually comes to CLEARING content, but the content itself is not arbitrarily locked for anyone. And given the ubiquity and ease of access to regrets and atlas respec orbs, our "choices" with regards to passives are already so supremely diluted as to be almost completely meaningless. At least when it comes to the passive tree, you are locked in by your class choice so there IS still permanence there. Plus, your passive tree is related to your gear and a whole host of other limiting factors that increases permanence and importance behind your choices in other, more interesting ways besides simple point allocation and respeccing.

NONE of these things are true of the atlas passive tree.

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Senju_Hyoketsu wrote:

NO, players SHOULD NOT be able to try their hand at everything. Reading this makes me want to quit human interactions.

This is one of the more ridiculous lines I have read on a gaming thread in recent memory. Should content be gated behind paywalls? Only duelists can access Shaper? You can only use delirium mirrors if you are playing a cold elemental build?

The game (and frankly, pretty much ALL games) is BUILT on everyone being able to try everything. Very few exceptions exist, like subscription games or games with standalone expansions that can occasionally gate content behind those who own the expansion and those who don't.

Why do YOU deserve to even try content more than any other player?


Your choices STILL matter because you can't COMPLETE the content you try. That's the whole point, not the access itself.

i am one of the people who didnt want multiple atlas trees as it would devalue orbs of unmaking.

it also reduces the weight of having an atlas tree to begin with.

one idea that was proposed by forummers is to allow separate trees for different characters.

i disagree on this as it would increase the gap between nolifers vs gamerdads. if this suggestion went live, players would be forced to level multiple characters if they want to get the best out of a league.

FOMO is a thing, to know that optimizing in a league requires so much effort, it can actually make players feel bad for not having that much time and may cause them to quit.

i honestly didnt expect ggg to allow 3 trees as the weight of having a tree is reduced.

but that said, i think it is a fair compromise between nolifers vs gamerdads. nolifers cant complain for not having access to multiple trees while gamerdads dont feel that theyre losing out for not rolling multiple characters.

More options = less specialisation ~ This guy.

I love weight, I play Ruthless a lot, I have argued against so many things that would make the game lighter. I am against an AH, removal of XP penalty, loot autopickup (for anything that has a decision, so in other words GOld/Azerite are fine to vacuum up but not things that matter, or are manipulated) I am even a fan of ID scrolls ffs (because they actually make items feel more impactful and give a tiny little second of dopamine when you ID a good base). I am against totally free character respec e.g Diablo 4's free respec.

Not every design choice that adds weight is the right compromise or the right balance point for that weight.

3 Atlas pages is a hell yes from me and long overdue. This is weight that only makes for tedium, if the atlas was character bound instead of account bound I might have a different view. If I was offered a full unspec when I re-rolled maybe... But its the same atlas for my league starter and I then need to burn orbs to respec. If I make some mistakes or not love the new character/strat then guess what my options are:

quit league or farm respec on a character I don't enjoy on a tree that is no longer relevant. Thats not good "weight" if you ask me.

"feel the weight of having to play an un-enjoyable character with an abandoned atlas tree"

That is not the right balance point. I can reroll to a new character if I'm out of regrets or in Ruthless. I can NOT reroll my atlas with that new character. Then heaven forbid I get a GREAT NEW IDEA for something to farm and I have ZERO flexibility to do so. Thats a dejected, demotivated, quit the league moment for me.

Or what if I want some variety, to rock out on something different for a couple days and then go back to my strat? Guess I'll just play a different game instead...

This change is just correcting a mistake of too much weight in the wrong place and not enough flexibility and variety in the initial design.

'' this is my last post ''
*Keep posting

Yea I can see where its going

See you in 3.24

Also thank god they finally did it.

Wow. Thats all I got.

I still don't understand how people can talk about the Atlas Passive Tree as having any kind of "weight"....it is a standalone structure, tied to no other system, with respec orbs that rain from the sky like candy AND are available to buy straight from the vendor.

There is and has never been any weight to the Atlas Tree, and players are encouraged to respec it over and over again. With this change, its just straight up huge QoL that you DON'T have to click 50-100 times every few days when you get bored.


Compare that to the character passive tree. Totally different environment. Sure, you have common and cheap respec orbs BUT you also have the additional limiting factors of skill gem levels and cost, class choice, gear crafting/choice and cost, etc. Despite being a very similar system on paper (tree with easy to achieve respec orbs), the PROCESS behind making decisions is vastly different.

Character passives require decision-making, Atlas passives never have.


And then OPs whole thoughts about "devaluing" because for some reason, if you spec into certain content on your atlas tree, suddenly that means you are instantly a pro at it and will be able to extract meaningful amount of value from it. Last I checked, doing certain content efficiently (with or without the atlas passives) STILL requires specific builds, skill, and knowledge. So again.....all this does is cut down on unnecessary clicking.

If there is indeed a change in the "weight" of your atlas passive decisions....it is so infinitesimally small as to be non-existent. 99.99% of players aren't going to be able to set up a farming Tree 1, press "Tree 2" and suddenly be able to do bosses. That's just not how the Atlas tree works.