"GGG Hates Melee" well now we have EMPIRICAL PROOF that GGG has an Anti-Melee bias

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Baharoth15 wrote:

So i actually logged in to do your little challenge and honestly, what of it? Used a shadow, was level 3 when i got there, only white gear (helm + body arm + second weapon). Had to do some minor kiting to get rid of the mobs surrounding him then proceeded to facetank him until he died which took like 5 hits or so. The whole ordeal including the mobs took maybe 10-20 seconds if that. Where is the problem?

He struggles with it so it's a problem for everyone can't you see? smh my head

Real talk tho: melee will always have more problems with certain bosses than ranged classes, it's in the nature of things and not something you can fix with the current implementation in PoE1. The real outliers tho are in endgame which is far more relevant than the first 5 hours of a new character. Such a farce he'd make an argument about a boss in act 1, and highly disingenuous

I guess that's why GGG doesn't take melee seriously when people come up with "fighting tidal island boss" as an issue to prove a point. If you'd say "try doing so on uber eater" you'd have a better stance, which actually is absolute hell compared to any projectile build that gets free hitting when he goes to slam, as opposed to melee waiting doing nothing. Even cooler when he chains 3 of those and we stare like idiots.

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Z3RoNightMare wrote:

I guess that's why GGG doesn't take melee seriously when people come up with "fighting tidal island boss" as an issue to prove a point. If you'd say "try doing so on uber eater" you'd have a better stance, which actually is absolute hell compared to any projectile build that gets free hitting when he goes to slam, as opposed to melee waiting doing nothing. Even cooler when he chains 3 of those and we stare like idiots.

the other guy said he took 10-20 seconds.

compare that if he had just went ahead and used a ranged skill?

the reason why i bring up something from tidal island boss is because its a good snap shot of how melee is compared to ranged.

how much easier it would have been if it was with range?

but i guess you guys are right. nothing wrong at all with melee.

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exsea wrote:

the other guy said he took 10-20 seconds.

Yeah, and you took it out of context like a butcher. In an endgame bossing context, mobs are irrelevant, and any that do can be easily dealt with as both.

As for your boss "challenge", melee has the slight advantage.

Here's the "boss" fight with ranged.
https://puu.sh/JXb3F/0760f64b0b.webm
Here's the "boss" fight with melee.
https://puu.sh/JXb3E/dce65c0799.webm

So yeah, this comparison is garbage and useless compared to endgame, in which melee, in the endgame setting, the part of the game that actually matters, not acts, has the undisputed disadvantage because of a myriad of melee unfriendly mechanics, not some asinine level 3-4 boss with zero mechanics.

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Z3RoNightMare wrote:

Yeah, and you took it out of context like a butcher. In an endgame bossing context, mobs are irrelevant, and any that do can be easily dealt with as both.

As for your boss "challenge", melee has the slight advantage.

Here's the "boss" fight with ranged.
https://puu.sh/JXb3F/0760f64b0b.webm
Here's the "boss" fight with melee.
https://puu.sh/JXb3E/dce65c0799.webm

So yeah, this comparison is garbage and useless compared to endgame, in which melee, in the endgame setting, the part of the game that actually matters, not acts, has the undisputed disadvantage because of a myriad of melee unfriendly mechanics, not some asinine level 3-4 boss with zero mechanics.

It would be great to have a conversation about melee in endgame but it's difficult when people like exsea bring up outlandish examples then keep raving about responses to this madness. At this point the conversation is so far away from the actual topic it's hard to get back on track.

But I agree with you that it's a mechanical problem in essence. Eater of Worlds? When he goes for slams ranged builds keep dealing damage while melee gets to watch from the sideline. Sirus? Boss keeps teleporting away while melee has to micromanage being both close enough to him while also avoiding the lasers. Uber Elder? Ranged builds can keep running circles around the arena to avoid most of everything while melee has to bite through.

Maybe a dodge roll with iFrames is something that needs to be implemented for melee builds. Fortify was meant to be that in the past, but it doesn't let you avoid ailments or damage over time. How you could implement that in PoE1 though? No clue.

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Z3RoNightMare wrote:

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exsea wrote:

the other guy said he took 10-20 seconds.

Yeah, and you took it out of context like a butcher. In an endgame bossing context, mobs are irrelevant, and any that do can be easily dealt with as both.

As for your boss "challenge", melee has the slight advantage.

Here's the "boss" fight with ranged.
https://puu.sh/JXb3F/0760f64b0b.webm
Here's the "boss" fight with melee.
https://puu.sh/JXb3E/dce65c0799.webm

So yeah, this comparison is garbage and useless compared to endgame, in which melee, in the endgame setting, the part of the game that actually matters, not acts, has the undisputed disadvantage because of a myriad of melee unfriendly mechanics, not some asinine level 3-4 boss with zero mechanics.

as much as i hate being proven wrong, i m impressed at how efficiently you took him out. i have to admit i am not as good. i salute you for 2 things

1. for actually doing the challenge
2. for your skill in the game.

to be honest, i tend to get hit by one of his frost attacks, get slowed and sometimes even hit stunned.

i have to admit i m definitely not as good as you. kiting with projectiles would be the easiest way for me to defeat him.

regardless, i ll just state my 2 cents. the better you are at the game the easier it is to forget how difficult it can be for weaker players. it is significantly easier to pull off the ranged kiting than the melee kiting you did. i would say its more logical to assume more players would be at my skill level than yours.

that said. i have nothing else to add as my opinion is based on my skill level while yours is based on your skill level.

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ArtCrusade wrote:

Maybe a dodge roll with iFrames is something that needs to be implemented for melee builds. Fortify was meant to be that in the past, but it doesn't let you avoid ailments or damage over time. How you could implement that in PoE1 though? No clue.

It's funny you mention that, because for a long time i thought Leap Slam had iFrames, then one day i went to Shaper, Leap Slamed away mid shaper slam and got my shit slapped. I basically arrived dead and the animation at the time was hilarious.

I always felt like totems were a good idea, but had several issues which made them bad as slow start of attack, bad self defenses and now complete lack of support for that build path. It's just annoying to see they gut another play style for nothing.

Regardless, as someone who played several games of several genres as melee, i'd say the only true fix for melee is inherent stronger tankiness. Being 10 meters aways will always be safer, so stronger armour is needed to compensate for being face to face, there's no two ways about it. Sadly, i guess the only way to fix it in PoE is giving it screen wide AoE and forget about it. Cleave of Rage, Lacerate of Butchering and Earthquake of Amplification kinda do that so... I guess?

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exsea wrote:

that said. i have nothing else to add as my opinion is based on my skill level while yours is based on your skill level.

That's fair. I guess that's also why i never felt PoE was a hard game, just a super grindy one.

Its sad that not only there are so few melee trans gems but those that exists have incredibly bad numbers in terms of damage effectivity or base attack speed penalties or simply bad mechanics with very little thought put in.

I guess we just have to deal with the design choices. 10 years of feedback didnt help to improve melee in meaningful ways in path of exile.

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zzang wrote:

Its sad that not only there are so few melee trans gems but those that exists have incredibly bad numbers in terms of damage effectivity or base attack speed penalties or simply bad mechanics with very little thought put in.

I guess we just have to deal with the design choices. 10 years of feedback didnt help to improve melee in meaningful ways in path of exile.

Excuse me? Volcanic Fissure of Snaking is insane just as one example. Rage Vortex of Berserking, Cleave of Rage, Flicker Strike of Power, Ground Slam of Earthshaking.. these gems all have strong build enabling power.

Should there be more? Why of course, but saying there is none is just wrong

On the contrary, getting the right melee gem is much easier because there is not an abundance of them like with blue gems

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ArtCrusade wrote:

"

zzang wrote:

Its sad that not only there are so few melee trans gems but those that exists have incredibly bad numbers in terms of damage effectivity or base attack speed penalties or simply bad mechanics with very little thought put in.

I guess we just have to deal with the design choices. 10 years of feedback didnt help to improve melee in meaningful ways in path of exile.

Excuse me? Volcanic Fissure of Snaking is insane just as one example. Rage Vortex of Berserking, Cleave of Rage, Flicker Strike of Power, Ground Slam of Earthshaking.. these gems all have strong build enabling power.

Should there be more? Why of course, but saying there is none is just wrong

On the contrary, getting the right melee gem is much easier because there is not an abundance of them like with blue gems

There is a number of people in this forum who believe that the average melee gem should have 2 or even 3 times the base damage they currently have to be on par with spells/worth using.

I am not one of them but honestly, even i think the new trans gems are lame. Like that 100% increased angle groundslam, the base gem should have that. Same with Cleave of rages AOE. Flickerstrike of power is literally the same gem in blue. That duration EQ is so impractical it will never be more than a meme no matter the damage. The worst offender though is actually ice nova where now you need the transgem to properly use it, the main gem is pointless.

Even if we hadn't lost helm enchants, threshold jewels and alt gems to get this shit, it would have been a massive disappointment.

/edit just stumbled over this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za-tkwxCmhY

If you use the gem directly the drawback makes it worthless because there is no way to constantly recover 10 endurance charges in less than a second but you can just cheat your way around it. Not like it's worth making a build around it because we all know already GGG is going to "fix" it next league. Can't have good melee gems in the game afterall. It's just stupid.