Skill tree starting location
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One thing I have thought about a lot in terms of balance is how we have different starting locations clustered around archetype nodes. But, our skills may never use nearby nodes.
We have the freedom to pick what we want, but are constrained by passive tree placement. It would be more interesting if the skill tree let us pick our starting location, especially since most builds favor right side nodes anyway. Stun and leech aren't really desirable atm. Blood magic needs some changes, the best points for leveling weapon skills are left side, but uniques cover what they do anyway. As a side note I think we should also get to pick what attribute nodes are. It would be an interesting idea for an event nonetheless, especially since krangled passives was so poorly implented last time. Just a thought. Last bumped on Oct 31, 2023, 11:50:45 PM
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This wasn't really an issue long ago because there was no Ascendancies.
When they added them it created starting location issues. They then thematically started shifting nodes to certain areas creating massive travel distance. Then they somewhat fixed it by adding cluster jewels. Then ruined it again by making it so only multi-Dive Clusters are worth using. Every iteration of the passive tree for years now has just served to further pigeon hole players. There's still plenty to choose from but every time I see it happen again. It bugs me. "Never trust floating women." -Officer Kirac
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" True. I mean basically every character wants like something like 200 inc life, 400 inc damage, 200 relevant stats, give or take, to function. The other like 30 points go into defense layers or clusters. Some tree areas are just way more point efficient i guess. At this point they might need to balance around not having clusters or jewels to really improve things. And it isnt the largest issue yet, but it could become pretty bad over timd. |
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I see it from the opposite side: the starting points are meant for "newer" players to give them an idea of what each class typically specializes in. It's really only the far more advanced players that branch very far away from these starting points.
Because of this, I don't see it at all as a type of pigeonholing, but rather as an instrument to HELP players not screw themselves over. I personally think ascendancies actually strengthened this, rather than weakened it as some suggested. The ascendancies were further specialized than even the classes, and for the most part the most USEFUL basic strategies on the passive tree for all the ascendancies were right there. The passive tree itself was trying to steer the player into a "successful" build. Saboteur was a trap/mine based ascendancy....so all the trap and mine nodes were nearby. Assassin was poison, and the poison nodes were also right there. Juggernaut was defensive life-based, and most life nodes were clustered there. Gladiator was the shieldmaster and most shield nodes were right there. Etc. Throughout the years new mechanics, skills, items, interactions have made it necessary and logical for EXPERIENCED players to branch far away from the starting points, causing them to get frustrated at all the wasted time and points traveling. BUT you cannot forget about the majority of the playerbase, who are far less experienced, who are far less inclined to experiment, who will likely NOT travel far away and optimize to the nth degree. |
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the passive tree is extremely limiting for build options imo. I can't play half the builds I wanna play because it's not possible to take a crucial mastery or a keystone without spending 20 points. wish there was a way to rotate the tree
"buff grenades" - Buff Grenades (Buff-Grenades) Last edited by auspexa#1404 on Oct 29, 2023, 1:29:52 PM
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" How so? You can use Skin of the Lords, this league you can even use keystone tattoo (not THAT expensive to hit it). That's the beauty of PoE that every class starting point have different strengths and cons. |
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" That is a HUGE gaping overstatement...limiting, possibly, mildly limiting, sure, but EXTREMELY limiting? No way. I also find it hard to believe that HALF of the builds you want to play are impossible because you can't figure out a passive tree to make it work... Should EVERY build be possible to make? EVERY combination of keystones, masteries, and pathways? I don't think so...there would be no need for classes, no need for ascendancies, no real need for any "rpg" elements in general. PoE boasts innumerable build diversity, ESPECIALLY with the tree as it is. And if it costs you 20 points to get a specific keystone to create a unique build...so what? Most builds have 20+ "dead" points anyway. That's why tattoos of this league are SO popular: its allowing players to get rid of their unnecessary passives. Hell, I have played and built characters where more than half of the passive points were just movement from one area to another and the build functioned perfectly. But I still firmly and truly believe that it would be a mistake for EVERYTHING to be possible for everyone, from anywhere, at anytime. Last edited by jsuslak313#7615 on Oct 29, 2023, 2:00:12 PM
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" skin itself is extremely limiting already. and it's like 100 divs to hit a keystone tattoo. AND this isn't even a solution if you want multiple keystones that are far away " well it is, because build defining keystones such as elemental overload, zealots oath, iron reflexes, perfect agony, eternal youth, elemental equilibrium, avatar of fire, blood magic and mind over matter are too hard to access for most builds that would want them like, if you want to do a non-crit elemental poison build with pneumatic dagger, you pretty much have to take EO, but its positioning has nothing to do with any poison stuff so you have to spend an absurd amount of points just to have it, and 40% more damage isn't even worth it if you have to spend like 15 points. I have 2 poison builds I want to make, but both of them need EO, because going crit means I have to change the entire build and I don't wanna do that you want to play a mom/arcane cloak build on a ranger, using life+mana flasks? out of luck, it's 20 points away and cloak of defiance is awful blood magic with sacrifice? not happening I'm not even gonna talk about zealots oath, the fact that it's so far away from CI doesn't make any sense at all. this is the only reason why no one plays CI saboteur even though pyromaniac would be pretty good for CI+ZO cold/lightning ignite builds work the best with elemental equilibrium, but pretty much the only build that takes EE is explosive arrow ballista, because it's already pathing through there to grab totem stuff, and a build such as arc ignite is never pathing towards it, because it can't. does this make any sense? perfect agony with ignite? nope. I could keep going. the positioning of the keystones are extremely limiting and they mostly seem arbitrary "buff grenades" - Buff Grenades (Buff-Grenades) Last edited by auspexa#1404 on Oct 29, 2023, 3:37:36 PM
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keystones, by their very definition, should ALL be build defining. They would NEVER be equidistant for every build. Or are you saying you want every single keystone in one giant cluster right in the middle of the tree?
And I VERY much disagree with your assertion that "most builds" that want a specific keystone are far away from that keystone. I would say the RAREST uses of that keystone are likely far away from the keystone. The ideas you mention are NOT the ideas that most people are looking to create: they are ideas created by someone with tons of experience and purposely trying to PUSH the game to its limits. With those ideas, it SHOULD be hard to achieve, maybe even impossible as you say. As far as locations, Blood magic is right next to the entire part of the tree dedicated to life and regen. Makes perfect sense. CI and Zealot's are far away from each other BECAUSE the combo of the two is so powerful. The "cost" of getting both keystones is the pathing you need to take. It shouldn't be easy to suddenly get two overpowered mechanics that stack well with each other. And some of the others you mention? Many of them have MULTIPLE items you can use to get the effect you want, bypassing the tree entirely. Perfect Agony and ignite? Use Coralito or slap on replica atziri (if you ALSO don't want to do Skin of Lords). Same with Zealot's Oath actually: there are MULTIPLE ways to get ZO with CI without having to path to it. As far as the cost: you better be DAMN sure that something which saves you 20+ passive points is going to be expensive! Why shouldn't it be? Not everything should just be handed to you on the passive tree. And EVERYTHING requires a sacrifice. Wanna make a really cool unique build? You might have to do some fancy pathing, wear a build-enabling unique, use a unique potion, etc. Keystones also aren't really arbitrarily placed at all. I can come up with MANY theoretical ideas as to why every single keystone is placed where it is on the tree. I've already named a few above, but lets talk about a few: 1) MoM: near Templar and Witch because both of those specialize in mana and tend to lack life. It makes no sense to place that anywhere else. 2) Iron Reflexes: located near Duelist and Ranger because they are the classes that most likely specialize in evasion. Witch is ES, Marauder is Life, Templar is ES/Life, Shadow is ES/Eva. It's placed exactly where it needs to be placed. It makes NO SENSE to put that keystone anywhere else. 3) Elemental Overload / Elemental Equilibrium: no brainers here. Near witch and templar, which are the true "elementalists" on the tree. Plus, its far away from most critical nodes since overload supplants critical damage investment. I could go on, but there is a REASON the keystones are where they are. Sometimes its thematic, sometimes its to keep them separated from cooperating keystones, and only rarely is it because there just wasn't another place for it. Your whole argument is an exaggeration because you are at the point in your PoE "career" that you don't want to do the 100/1000 classic builds: you want the unique, meme-like, max-creative builds. I would bet every penny I have that 99% of the current PoE players are NOT doing the same. The passive tree is limiting TO YOU because you've gotten everything you wanted out of the passive tree already for so long. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the passive tree is "extremely limiting" in any way, nor does it point to arbitrary keystone placement. It merely points to the fact that you are thinking so far out of the box that the costs might begin to outweigh the benefits. But that is a fact of life...not everything can or should be equal, especially in games. Last edited by jsuslak313#7615 on Oct 29, 2023, 4:10:40 PM
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Honestly thanks for all the comments.
I think I agree that a lot if the tree feels arbitrary with node placement because we often use skill combos the devs didn't anticipate, like ea ballista, or reaper champ. My point is if we could choose our location that would allow for much greater diversity. I know we can play scion for that or use stuff like escape or skin of lords, but perhaps locking away builds behind items is a bad idea, and scion has a host of other issues. It also isn't just notables, a lot of players prefer certain defenses or attributes over others. Letting them mix and match starting areas might help them play ascendacies they otherwise would ignore. I'm not asking for a build to take every keystone. I just think additional freedom would be nice. |
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