ZiggyD's "PoE2 Combvat Review" Video

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1453R wrote:

I honestly think it would be extremely cool, and solve a lot of the issue, if they eliminated the Galactic Standard Universal Dodge Roll and gave each of the twelve classes their own unique Dodge/Evade/Escape action.

I second this, and I think we briefly touched upon this in another thread. All characters, no matter the build, their weight, gear and situation having the exact same "roll"? It just doesn't make sense in any way.

But I like your "because I listened to the developers" argument. A lot of us listened 4 years ago too. A lot of us would've listened if they would announce the split when they decided to split. It just keeps piling up with examples that tell us that we can't really trust/believe in what they say, and we just have to base our opinions on what we see.

What they want, trying to do, or say are more or less irrelevant at this point. All we can do, is interpret what we see.

And, what I saw, was a series of proofs that they have a VERY long way to go, because their gameplay is full of flaws - IMO.

Slowing down the game can work. Combination-based combat can work. But it requires a few changes that might be very unpopular, mainly monster density. If they will push for this style of combat with the density they showed at the 'con, I fear we have a huge, sluggish, tiresome problem.

#P4BAD. There are really good points by ZiggyD. I only played Warrior and stuns were ridiculous.

Good thing that I dont need anyone else to make an opinion for me so any of this streamers videos are meaningless. Unless they do radical changes to the combat (which I doubt) poe 2 is a no go for me.

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AintCare wrote:

is this a review of the review? if so can someone tl;dr this as i would like to review it

Sounds cool, looks cool, but you'll die to things you can't control 24/7.

Excellent read Op. Thank you

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AintCare wrote:

is this a review of the review? if so can someone tl;dr this as i would like to review it

Could call Asmongold to react to a reaction to a reaction to a review of a review.

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Phrazz wrote:

I second this, and I think we briefly touched upon this in another thread. All characters, no matter the build, their weight, gear and situation having the exact same "roll"? It just doesn't make sense in any way.

We did, and it was one of the things that coalesced in my head when I was watching Zigg's video. It just makes sense to amplify the dodge mechanic into a unique escape for each class, turn the dodge into what it's supposed to be - your way out of a bad spot.

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Phrazz wrote:

But I like your "because I listened to the developers" argument. A lot of us listened 4 years ago too. A lot of us would've listened if they would announce the split when they decided to split. It just keeps piling up with examples that tell us that we can't really trust/believe in what they say, and we just have to base our opinions on what we see.

And that's the issue, really. I like that they split the two games. It makes a ton of sense, and it lets each game be what it's supposed to be. Path 1 can be a Religion of Zoom meth-addled clickfest, Path 2 can be the Tactical Combat Paradigm game. Yeah, they've got a long way to go, but the rampant paranoia irritates me to no end.

Yeah, they said one thing four years ago, then changed their mind two years ago and didn't say anything about it. I understand people feeling bait-and-switched, truly, and I'm never gonna tell someone not to feel that way or to continue their support if they decided to pull it. But:

1.) Do you honestly think the reaction would've been any damn better if they'd "Come clean" immediately?
2.) Nature of game development. Decisions change, scopes change, new ideas come up and replace old ones. It's why game developers fucking hate talking to players before a product's done - players take "Hey this is our current plan" as an ironclad etched-in-titanium Unbreakable Promise Upon the Very Fabric of the Cosmos, and when the dev has to go back on that "promise" later, the players do...well, exactly what they've been doing all week. Keeping silent and just doing what you were going to do anyways results in less pain for most people.

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Phrazz wrote:

What they want, trying to do, or say are more or less irrelevant at this point. All we can do, is interpret what we see.

And, what I saw, was a series of proofs that they have a VERY long way to go, because their gameplay is full of flaws - IMO.

I choose to buy into concept/vision statements, because that hasn't ever really changed. The overall idea of Path of Exile 2 as a more involved, less speed-addled upgrade to PoE1 where tactics and execution matter more than they do in PoE1 (i.e. they actually matter at all) and players can engage in a fun action game alongside their ARPG clickfest has never really changed. What they wanted out of PoE2, the things they were hoping to do with it, have stayed the same.

Does that make me a naive hype-swallowing fangirl? Maybe. But is that really worse than being a bitter nasty gremlin actively wishing for the death of both games out of nothing but spite?

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Phrazz wrote:

Slowing down the game can work. Combination-based combat can work. But it requires a few changes that might be very unpopular, mainly monster density. If they will push for this style of combat with the density they showed at the 'con, I fear we have a huge, sluggish, tiresome problem.

That's a good point, really. Monster density was a little whack, especially given how weak and awful the characters are. That said, my hope is that the core game is quicker than what was shown but slower by far than top-end Path the First insanity. My bar is still DMC5 - I want my action game fast and frenetic, but there's a fundamental qualitative difference between "fast, frenetic action game" and Path the First's Religion of Zoom point-click-boom-bye gameplay loop. Religion of Zoom honestly doesn't feel "fast" to me, when I watch it or in the few instances where I've graduated to a moderately fast build. it feels broken, like something's wrong with the game and I'm abusing that something. THis is especially apparent in boss fights, where the fifteen-year-old animation rigs and their associated animations really demonstrate their inadequacy.

In an ideal world? Blasting through white trash in a zone/map would be quick, smooth, and satisfyingly Dynasty Warriors-esque, with a well-geared, well played build generally one-tapping past most garbage enemies and engaging bulky rares with their favorite bursty skill combo for a few seconds before moving on. And when you encounter the boss at the end of the zone/map, you smoothly and seamlessly shift into Tactical Combat Paradigm and actually engage with the boss, evading or enduring the boss's blows as your build deems fit while smoothly executing your combat plan against said boss. Reacting to its abilities to minimize incoming damage and bringing it down within a minute or two tops after a clean, entertaining fight.

I do not want - and I'd argue nobody else wants - the demo feed's "take twelve hits to clear blue critters, be terrified of white packs bigger than eightish monsters, and pound a boss like a heat-exhausted roofer in Florida for half an hour before it dies."

I also do not want "Enter map, click 'Attack' once, explode every living thing on that map and the four next maps in my map rota, listen for sound of Divine or better loot dropping, if no such sound move on because nothing less than div drops is worth picking up."

There has got to be a satisfying middle ground between those two points. Am I not allowed to hope Grinding Gear can find it?

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1453R wrote:

There has got to be a satisfying middle ground between those two points. Am I not allowed to hope Grinding Gear can find it?

You are, I'm not here to deny you your opinion or beliefs. I'm here to debate them. You are allowed to believe PoE 2 will be the answer. I'm allowed to be skeptical, as I'm actually a PoE player that likes the game. And no, to keep playing an outdated PoE 1 will not feel that good anymore, when the updates and changes we were promised are probably dead in the wind.

Roadmap. Now. Please.

Mm. Fair enough. And I suppose that's a key difference.

I don't really like Path of Exile the First anymore. I've been playing it for the last couple-ish months since the Ngamakanui and Aggorat trailers punched my hype button, but it's been puttering in Standard slowly eating through my (extremely limited) residual wealth to outfit a couple of random one-off newbie characters that in no way could ever pay for themselves. Prior to that I'd quit for over a year, the last league I played to any extent before now was Lake of Kalandra. I'd occasionally log on and blitz threw a few maps with old-league champion characters, relive the handful of times I actually succeeded in a league, but then I'd switch back to Elden Ring or Deep Rock or Darktide or whatever else I'd been doing. The only thing keeping me in the game at all, the only reason I kept up with Supporter packs and such, was the hope that as you said, PoE2 would be The Answer.

I can absolutely get behind the desire for a roadmap, and for some firmer commitments on the Path the First end. That is a thing Grinding Gear should very much be doing, though again - is anyone going to believe them even if they do put up a roadmap? The paranoia has reached a fever pitch, people are already actively and deliberately telling other players Grinding Gear made explicit plans to discontinue PoE1 despite GGG saying the exact opposite of that.

I suppose in part I'm just sick of being the only human being on the entire planet not named Jonathan, Mark, or Chris who's actually excited to see where this thing goes, and who agrees that blowing up Path the First to forcibly transmogrify it into Path the Second would've pissed off even more people even more intensely than the decision to split the two games did. It's exhausting, dispiritng, and frankly I'm only here on the forums when I'm between calls on the clock and can't do anything else with my time anyways. Too depressing otherwise.

But yeah. Concur with roadmap, Grinding Gear owes the playerbase actual answers. Was irritated with "ExileCon FAQ" and annoyed Grinding Gear so thoroughly dodged the issue. But am not going to be convinced PoE2 doesn't have the potential to be a vastly better game than PoE1 is fundamentally capable of being, mired in fifteen years of baggage the way it is.

But hey. In an hour or so I'll get off shift, go back to being a pretty tiefling wizard in Faerun tryin'a get the nasty psychic Ryslatha parasite out of my thinkmeat, and very likely nobody will have to deal with me for the remainder of the weekend. Fair dinkum?

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Phrazz wrote:

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1453R wrote:

There has got to be a satisfying middle ground between those two points. Am I not allowed to hope Grinding Gear can find it?

You are, I'm not here to deny you your opinion or beliefs. I'm here to debate them. You are allowed to believe PoE 2 will be the answer. I'm allowed to be skeptical, as I'm actually a PoE player that likes the game. And no, to keep playing an outdated PoE 1 will not feel that good anymore, when the updates and changes we were promised are probably dead in the wind.

Roadmap. Now. Please.

I think you are still pursuing a fantasy that was never meant to be.

Those updates and changes you mention, were on the scale of complete game overhaul.
Even if PoE1 "evolved" into PoE2 as originally planned, it wouldn't be PoE1 anymore.

You said that because of split, PoE2 further departed from PoE1. Probably true, to some extent, but at Exilecon 2019 it was already very different game. Since 2019, PoE2 website which "And Much More" section, with more detail about that "much more' to be revealed at later time. "Much more" was always in the books.

PoE2 was always meant to be full package, yet here it feels like you try to cheery-pick certain features from PoE2, ignoring others.

Then it is worth highlighting, that nothing has been "promised". We got a reveal and preview of a product in development. Anything and everything could have changed. Considering that 4 years passed, PoE2 is surprisingly true to what was outlined in 2019.

You know, it is fine to say that you simply do not like something. It happens and it is valid feedback. It can be also good point to start a discussion. On the hand turning it into some kind of rant about "false promises" and demand x,y,z is not only counterproductive but simply dishonest.