Trade concerns between PoE1 and PoE2 from a (further) divided player base

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ATIX89 wrote:

So, whats your suggestion how to balance the economy? I am not getting you here. What I "read" is that you want to have more available stuff to buy and at a low price?

Supply and demand? Shouldn't it work with 800 players? Whats the ideal number of players if nothing else is changed?

I am not sure what the thinking was when designing the game. I would have guessed at freedom of personal choices.

Do you really think the economy is going to be stable or exist at all with 800 players? Let's assume you want an item that's at a low value a few weeks into a league. We all know how some players will outright refuse to trade for such small value items. How much worse is that going to get with a much smaller number of players keeping the economy working?

My suggestion for a solution is that GGG perhaps considers adjusting drop rates for everything to account for diminished playerbase. There will be less players engaging in all content, meaning there will be less exclusive items in the market overall. Leaving the current game economy balance as-is in such a situation is going to be disastrous.

Alternatively, the other solution is to make SSF more desirable with much greater loot to account for non-SSF players still playing in a game built with trade from the ground up that is no longer feasible.

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Pizzarugi wrote:

Spoiler

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ATIX89 wrote:

So, whats your suggestion how to balance the economy? I am not getting you here. What I "read" is that you want to have more available stuff to buy and at a low price?

Supply and demand? Shouldn't it work with 800 players? Whats the ideal number of players if nothing else is changed?

I am not sure what the thinking was when designing the game. I would have guessed at freedom of personal choices.

Do you really think the economy is going to be stable or exist at all with 800 players? Let's assume you want an item that's at a low value a few weeks into a league. We all know how some players will outright refuse to trade for such small value items. How much worse is that going to get with a much smaller number of players keeping the economy working?

My suggestion for a solution is that GGG perhaps considers adjusting drop rates for everything to account for diminished playerbase. There will be less players engaging in all content, meaning there will be less exclusive items in the market overall. Leaving the current game economy balance as-is in such a situation is going to be disastrous.

Alternatively, the other solution is to make SSF more desirable with much greater loot to account for non-SSF players still playing in a game built with trade from the ground up that is no longer feasible.

So, your suggestion for a solution is that someone else is going to find the solution? At least consider it? This after you answer my question with a question? What I think doesn't matter. Is there a difference between if I say "yes" or "no"?

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"We must play better if we gonna beat that other team, right now we will not win that game against the next opponent."

"Coach, do you have any idea or suggestions how we will do it?"

"Listen players, my suggestion is that you change your style of playing, so it better fits the opponents tactic. This is because that team is really good and better that the team we played a draw against today. Playing as today will make us lose big!"

If this game was built with trading as the main thing, is like saying this game was built as an racing simulator.

You know one thing? The ratio in drop is the same no matter if one or ten million is playing the game.

So you don't have any suggestion but want a change you don't even know how you want. Or was there something you wrote I didn't understand?

I just see exactly the same as i wrote in my quote!

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Pizzarugi wrote:

Do you really think the economy is going to be stable or exist at all with 800 players? Let's assume you want an item that's at a low value a few weeks into a league. We all know how some players will outright refuse to trade for such small value items. How much worse is that going to get with a much smaller number of players keeping the economy working?

In smaller economies it's of no use pushing your accustomed trade league definition of 'low value items' onto the new situation.

By accepting a transaction, you agree to the value of something. The second you want something, anything, it becomes an item of value to you.

The economy will absolutely exist with 800 players, and for sure it'll be stable.

The economy will be totally different than the current game, but it won't be non-existent simply because there are less players. Nor does the number of players REALLY affect the stability unless its some absurdly small number (800 is NOT that).

I also agree with Innervation: the economy will be built around the new game, the available items, and the players interacting with it. Prices and Valuations will change accordingly. We also have no idea what the drop rate is going to be...that alone will change the market too.

What does less players mean for the market?
1) Less currency in the system
2) Less items in the system
3) Less likely to have an item fit your exact parameters

What function do these situations actually have on a "functional, stable" economy?
1) None: the price of items will reflect the available currency and willing trade partners
2) None: exactly the same as #1. The price will reflect whatever the demand happens to be
3) Again, none in particular. It will make it more difficult to min/max using Trade; however, it will not change the function of the market overall. It might even boost the value of middling gear.

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ATIX89 wrote:

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ATIX89 wrote:

I am not sure what the thinking was when designing the game. I would have guessed at freedom of personal choices.

...
If this game was built with trading as the main thing, is like saying this game was built as an racing simulator.

But PoE1 was, very much, designed with trade in mind from the outset.
Source: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2025870

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When we started developing Path of Exile in 2006, we identified several key design pillars. These are fundamental philosophies chosen to guide our design decisions throughout development. One of these was that "items matter". Items are a player's reward for playing Path of Exile. ...
For items to matter, it's important that they can be traded to other players. ...
The ability to trade any item is a fundamental part of why people enjoy playing Path of Exile - if you're lucky, you can find amazing stuff that you can trade for all the items needed to create an entire new character build.

So it was never the intention that players find the best gear for themselves in {what they drop}, always that they trade for it from the much larger pool of {what the entire trading playerbase drops}.
I don't personally agree with this approach, but it is what it is.

If the playerbase shrinks, then the experience will be more similar to SSF - especially in leagues, if they continue. Not only will there be fewer players, and hence less stuff dropping; but there will be fewer players farming crafting mats, and end-game crafting. And this will be exacerbated if (as I suspect) players who enjoy trading are more likely to move to the bigger market, i.e. those remaining are more likely to be SSF who wouldn't notice or miss the lack of trading anyhow.

And for people who like PoE1, but like it especially because of the ease of acquiring gear of any sort via trade, that will be an issue.

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Varana wrote:

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ATIX89 wrote:

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ATIX89 wrote:

I am not sure what the thinking was when designing the game. I would have guessed at freedom of personal choices.

...
If this game was built with trading as the main thing, is like saying this game was built as an racing simulator.

But PoE1 was, very much, designed with trade in mind from the outset.
Source: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2025870

"

When we started developing Path of Exile in 2006, we identified several key design pillars. These are fundamental philosophies chosen to guide our design decisions throughout development. One of these was that "items matter". Items are a player's reward for playing Path of Exile. ...
For items to matter, it's important that they can be traded to other players. ...
The ability to trade any item is a fundamental part of why people enjoy playing Path of Exile - if you're lucky, you can find amazing stuff that you can trade for all the items needed to create an entire new character build.

So it was never the intention that players find the best gear for themselves in {what they drop}, always that they trade for it from the much larger pool of {what the entire trading playerbase drops}.
I don't personally agree with this approach, but it is what it is.

If the playerbase shrinks, then the experience will be more similar to SSF - especially in leagues, if they continue. Not only will there be fewer players, and hence less stuff dropping; but there will be fewer players farming crafting mats, and end-game crafting. And this will be exacerbated if (as I suspect) players who enjoy trading are more likely to move to the bigger market, i.e. those remaining are more likely to be SSF who wouldn't notice or miss the lack of trading anyhow.

And for people who like PoE1, but like it especially because of the ease of acquiring gear of any sort via trade, that will be an issue.

Exactly, you explained it in a better way that I have a hard time articulating.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

The economy will absolutely exist with 800 players, and for sure it'll be stable.

The economy will be totally different than the current game, but it won't be non-existent simply because there are less players. Nor does the number of players REALLY affect the stability unless its some absurdly small number (800 is NOT that).

I also agree with Innervation: the economy will be built around the new game, the available items, and the players interacting with it.

Yeah going by my experience in both ~10 man private leagues as well as larger private leagues like BPL the hardest part is the communication around the wanting of small, frivolous things like Pizzarugi mentioned. Things like Wasp Nest and Rise of the Phoenix are common, but there is no guarantee that you will see them drop in a timely manner on league start. You may be willing to pay 20c for one, and other players in the league would probably be very willing to pick one up if they knew you were willing to pay that much. But you can't put 20c in a trade tab and list it for the price of (1) Rise of the Phoenix. At least, not yet.

That's why private leagues have a shared spreadsheet with a tab for those kind of wants.

So in hindsight I guess I'd ask Pizzarugi what the real qualm of a small economy is. Is it access or is it 'paying an unfair price for what is cheap in current trade league'. I would agree and sympathize with the former, but the latter would be a misunderstanding of economics.

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Varana wrote:

Spoiler

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ATIX89 wrote:

"

ATIX89 wrote:

I am not sure what the thinking was when designing the game. I would have guessed at freedom of personal choices.

...
If this game was built with trading as the main thing, is like saying this game was built as an racing simulator.

But PoE1 was, very much, designed with trade in mind from the outset.
Source: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2025870

"

When we started developing Path of Exile in 2006, we identified several key design pillars. These are fundamental philosophies chosen to guide our design decisions throughout development. One of these was that "items matter". Items are a player's reward for playing Path of Exile. ...
For items to matter, it's important that they can be traded to other players. ...
The ability to trade any item is a fundamental part of why people enjoy playing Path of Exile - if you're lucky, you can find amazing stuff that you can trade for all the items needed to create an entire new character build.

So it was never the intention that players find the best gear for themselves in {what they drop}, always that they trade for it from the much larger pool of {what the entire trading playerbase drops}.
I don't personally agree with this approach, but it is what it is.

If the playerbase shrinks, then the experience will be more similar to SSF - especially in leagues, if they continue. Not only will there be fewer players, and hence less stuff dropping; but there will be fewer players farming crafting mats, and end-game crafting. And this will be exacerbated if (as I suspect) players who enjoy trading are more likely to move to the bigger market, i.e. those remaining are more likely to be SSF who wouldn't notice or miss the lack of trading anyhow.

And for people who like PoE1, but like it especially because of the ease of acquiring gear of any sort via trade, that will be an issue.

Just because it was not an intention that players would find the best items for themself - it does not mean it was built for trading. They have no corellation (Im to tired to see if this is the correct word in english) to eachother.

I will read the source later. I think I have pressed it but have been sleeping a lot and not have the best days so. There maybe is something of important. WIthout reading it I feel (and this could be totally wrong) trading is one of many possiblities in the game. Thats why I point at freedom of the choices. The one who wants to trade a lot can do it, but the ones who dont have the same possiblities but with an added time to achieve our own goals.

I agree with the quote, it is important to have the freedom - Blizzard have taken away the freedom. Probably because human beings cant handle freedom, without destroying it. But just because they want it it doesnt mean everything is about it.

As said, I dont trade, but I have no strict rules against it either. If and AH is positive or not, it is hard to say. I think that player who investigate time and effort is the one to be rewarded, but there is also a line where people should be able to progress even if they have a life outside of PoE. And easier, more QoL and such things are not equal to "better". In some ways it is, in other it is not. And when a lot of people speaking in terms of bad or good, they just have themself in mind.

When I find some good item - and I don't know a lot more then what I found because not ruin the game for me - then I prefer to create a new character to build around this item. And I know I have read that the devs said they want people to rather reroll a new character instead of just change everything with the one they are playing - even if it is possibly to do the last.

If there are x players needed to get it running for a good trade game, will it just dont work the same with 5x or just 0,1x? More players means higher demands but also higher supply? And vice versa? Yes, there are a botom line but I think that will be quite low, so it should not be a problem if there are 800 at least semi active players. It would be fine with only 80 players as long as we speak players similar to the ones who like trade as first choice. We can add 10 000 players like me and in fact it would not change the trading.

I see the concerns but I think the numbers has to be so low that trading players will even notice it. And I am not saying the price will not be affected (not thought so much of that) but the items will for sure be available. And I think trade should be allowed and I like it is one part of many in this game. But more important is to get rid of bots and other that ruin the market. But that is nothing anyone have solved yet.

Sorry if this is why off, but have been in my bed for a few days and just get up on my two legs again, so still a bit off. I will read and edit it later if Im totally off :)

I don't think folks even realize how few companies there are in the real world on certain stock exchanges...a functional, reactive, STABLE economy does not require a huge amount of "players". Hell, the entire world's economy is driven by less than 100 countries. It's not a perfect comparison...but it is a great insight into how only a few major players are truly required for stability and breadth.

I cannot say what the "minimum" amount of players would be in PoE 1 or PoE 2 to maintain a stable economy, but I would say even if we only had TEN players...we would still see a stable economy form. There might not be as much "choice" on the market, but it will still be stable and functional.

I believe GGG WILL be faced with certain choices they will have to make within the first few months/years of the game. How many players are active? What are the current drop rates of items? Do the drop rates mesh well with trade availability? Adjust accordingly. PoE 1 itself went through this HEAVILY for years at the beginning. Anyone else remember how RARE basic rare items were in the first few years of PoE? Anyone else remember never finding a single regal orb? Alch orbs were way way way way less common. It takes time to balance these things appropriately, and its also something you simply cannot do effectively until you SEE how many people are playing the game. But none of this has anything to do with a stable, functional economy: these things only have effects on the offerings within the economy.